[JG853]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Real racing vs bench racing. I'll take the C8 Z06.

First off, I am not a bench racer. I use facts and do not drink Kool Aid. I own the cars you are all discussing (Other than the new Z06, obviously).

A properly cooled C7 Z06/Z07 is going to give the C8 Z06 all it can handle (You know, the cooling system LG came up with in late 2015 that was used basically on the C7 ZR1). The C8 Z06 is not going to beat a C7 ZR1, period. On tight tracks like Willow Springs for example, the C8 Z06 will fair very very well against both due to its tight corners, slippery surface that favor ME platform cars and in this regard, it might best the time.

Furthermore, the quarter mile time that was just published is where the ME platform, DCT, Cup2R C8 Z06 shines - Acceleration (And traction out of the hole). How much faster would a C7 Z06 be on equal tires - Maybe 1.5 seconds to get it to 10.8?). So, that put's it at .2 of the C8 Z06 time (Where it has all of the ME, 20HP and DCT advantages). What happens if the same tires are on the C7 ZR1? Might this number go down in stock form as well in the quarter mile with Cup2Rs? Interesting to note that GM did not publish the MPH of the C8 Z06 in this regard. (I am not a drag racer)

Finally, the FE, ME, and RE Platforms all have their advantages and disadvantages. The ME platform suffers from oversteer, and it is inherent in that design. Sure, driving and set-up can help, but it is always there.

[JG853]

Originally Posted by d15b7

I’ve just recently driven a C8 Z51 package (bone stock) on track. It was at a private track day rental (entire track rented for a special private venue). I’m a driving coach and was asked to be there to help out. There also was a new Shelby GT500 Track Pack (stock) which I also drove. In the past I’ve driven a stock C7 Z06/07, on the same track.

Impressions: holy shit the C8 Z51 is amazing. (and remember I’m old school and love front engine manual trans big power; hence my personal ZLE). the new C8 Z51 felt incredibly well balanced, and tight, and fantastic transitions and body control. No squeaks or rattles either. Great brakes. Decent power; fantastic transmission (I don’t like DCTs cause I feel they take some of the skill and fun out of driving, but this DCT is great). This car somehow feels MUCH lighter and more nimble than it has any right to feel given it’s 3700 lb weight. C7 Z06/07 felt much much heavier and larger when I drove it compared to the C8 Z51. It’s crazy how much more nimble the C8 Z51 felt. Right out of the box into the first corner.

in my opinion I’d say the C8 Z51, is a ‘better’ car than the C7 Z06/07 was. I bet it’s very close in lap times too. And when the C8 Z06/07 arrives? With another 175 hp? And even more importantly with even better brakes and better suspension tuning and huge aero? There is no way in hell that it won’t best the C7 ZR1 on the track. No. Way. This new mid engine C8 platform is that good (and it pains me to say that lol)

Then I drove the Shelby GT500 carbon track pack. I really thought that I’d fall in love with it. Nope. Nope. Nope. Our ZLEs are way way more fun on track. The Mustang felt so goddam heavy and no good in tight transitions (this was at NJMP Thunderbolt btw). It’s body control was no where near as good as the C8 Z51 (and my ZLE is superior to the Shelby by a significant amount too). Braking from high speed was a bit nervous feeling (not terrible but it swayed noticeably). I felt that in the C7 Z06/07 a bit too. Nervous under hard braking. my ZLE is rock solid in that department. The Shelby pulled extremely hard in a straight line and sounded glorious. The DCT is extremely good in it too. But I was totally let down by the driving experience on track. Hands down the C8 Z51 felt so much more at home on the track.

When the C8 Z06/07 hits the streets and tracks? It’s gonna break some hearts. Mainly those of other exotic car owners (think GT3RS and Ferrari 488 etc etc).

I like the C8 too, but I will take you up on that bet against a C7 ZR1. On equal tires at The Ring, the C7 ZR1 would do a 6:4X on Cup2Rs. If GM ever releases its time for the C8 Z06, I am guessing 7:00 - 7:02. Jim Mero noted that the Cup2Rs are 10-12 seconds advantage over the previous gen tire from the C7 Z06/Z07 - that being the Cup 2s. For what it is worth, the true stock time of a GT2RS is 7:02 (A true stock GT2RS, not a modified one or one where the tires were changed). I will also take the bet at that the C8 Z06 does not beat the C7 ZR1 time at VIR. Those are the two benchmark tracks that are tested. At Willow Springs and Laguna Seca - I will take the C8 Z06 where the ME platform is at a big advantage. All of this on the times GM previously posted with the C7 ZR1 a few years ago on Cup2 tires. (Then put a set of Cup2Rs on the C7 ZR1 and compare times of both cars on equal tires and do the same for a C7 Z06/Z07).

I have not been or seen a road course where a C8 Z51 keeps up or is close in times with a C7 Z06/Z07 with equal drivers. It is not my experience at all on the track. A properly cooled C7 Z06 eats the C8 Z51 by a wide margin as it should - It has vastly more power, torque, and aero. The C8 Z51 is a nice car, but no where near the capability of the C7 Z06. It is better than it's predecessor the C7 Z51, but even there, it was not by much (And this is with the ME platform, DCT, 35/10 more HP/Torque) - Make sense? It should have beat the previous C7 Z51 by well over 1 second with all of those "advances". It did not do it though. Why?

The C8 Z06 will be a really nice car. We are all excited for it. I think it will do very well against the GT3 and 458 for which it was intended. Plus, the engine will be the last NA of its kind.

[JG853]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

Rumor is the new Z06 will be in the 6s - their objective was to beat the new GT3

I sure hope you are right - I am thinking it is 7:00 to 7:02.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by JG853

First off, I am not a bench racer. I use facts and do not drink Kool Aid. I own the cars you are all discussing (Other than the new Z06, obviously).

A properly cooled C7 Z06/Z07 is going to give the C8 Z06 all it can handle (You know, the cooling system LG came up with in late 2015 that was used basically on the C7 ZR1). The C8 Z06 is not going to beat a C7 ZR1, period. On tight tracks like Willow Springs for example, the C8 Z06 will fair very very well against both due to its tight corners, slippery surface that favor ME platform cars and in this regard, it might best the time.

Furthermore, the quarter mile time that was just published is where the ME platform, DCT, Cup2R C8 Z06 shines - Acceleration (And traction out of the hole). How much faster would a C7 Z06 be on equal tires - Maybe 1.5 seconds to get it to 10.8?). So, that put's it at .2 of the C8 Z06 time (Where it has all of the ME, 20HP and DCT advantages). What happens if the same tires are on the C7 ZR1? Might this number go down in stock form as well in the quarter mile with Cup2Rs? Interesting to note that GM did not publish the MPH of the C8 Z06 in this regard. (I am not a drag racer)

Finally, the FE, ME, and RE Platforms all have their advantages and disadvantages. The ME platform suffers from oversteer, and it is inherent in that design. Sure, driving and set-up can help, but it is always there.

Sounds like someone that is upset that their C7 collection is obsolete now. Its ok to admit, the torch has been passed to the next generation. It has. GM didn't invest this much money in the mid-engine platform to have it come up short to the previous generation. You're delusional due to your bias for the your C7s.

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison here but here's a C8 Z51 compared to a C7 ZR1, different drivers, but lots of data to digest taking the bias out of it. The C7 ZR1 is slightly quicker but it's a lot closer than you would think. The C8 Z06 is going to dominate the C7 ZR1.

https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator...-pros-and-cons

[Zone5]

Originally Posted by JG853

The ME platform suffers from oversteer, and it is inherent in that design. Sure, driving and set-up can help, but it is always there.

My understanding was that the C8 Corvette (ME) exhibited slight UNDERSTEER when driven beyond it's level of adhesion, not oversteer. At least that's what the magazine testers all said. And that would make sense given that the engine is further back: less weight on the contact patches of the front tires. However, velocity coming out of the corner is maximized due to the superior traction, facilitated by the rearward weight, compared to front engine.

Virtually every clean-sheet, supercar design in existence starts with a mid-engine. Why is that? Because they handle better. The closer the CG is to the middle of the car, the more neutral the handling characteristics will be. There's no getting around that. That's why Corvette engineers have been pushing for a mid-engine car for decades.

The other big difference between the C7 and C8 is supercharging, or lack there of. The C7s had such huge problems with overheating superchargers that GM absolutely had to go back to NA for cars that would see heavy road-course use. That's why my supercharged ZL1 has 11 coolers on it. To combat overheating. Superchargers are not really suitable for prolonged road-course racing. I raced in SCCA for 15 years. I never once saw a supercharged car on the grid. I have nothing against supercharging. I own a ZL1. But supercharging isn't the best set-up for the road-course. They eventually overheat and then pull timing, causing a big loss in power.

Finally, I'm guessing the C8 ZO6 will best any C7 lap time at the Ring. But regardless, the proof is in the pudding, GM went back to NA for a reason: supercharging isn't right for the road-course. The C8 ZO6 will be the best race car for road-course use GM has ever made. BTW, the C8 factory race cars are killing it in IMSA. Gee, I wonder why?

[Village Idiot]

Originally Posted by JG853

First off, I am not a bench racer. I use facts and do not drink Kool Aid. I own the cars you are all discussing (Other than the new Z06, obviously).

A properly cooled C7 Z06/Z07 is going to give the C8 Z06 all it can handle (You know, the cooling system LG came up with in late 2015 that was used basically on the C7 ZR1). The C8 Z06 is not going to beat a C7 ZR1, period. On tight tracks like Willow Springs for example, the C8 Z06 will fair very very well against both due to its tight corners, slippery surface that favor ME platform cars and in this regard, it might best the time.

Furthermore, the quarter mile time that was just published is where the ME platform, DCT, Cup2R C8 Z06 shines - Acceleration (And traction out of the hole). How much faster would a C7 Z06 be on equal tires - Maybe 1.5 seconds to get it to 10.8?). So, that put's it at .2 of the C8 Z06 time (Where it has all of the ME, 20HP and DCT advantages). What happens if the same tires are on the C7 ZR1? Might this number go down in stock form as well in the quarter mile with Cup2Rs? Interesting to note that GM did not publish the MPH of the C8 Z06 in this regard. (I am not a drag racer)

Finally, the FE, ME, and RE Platforms all have their advantages and disadvantages. The ME platform suffers from oversteer, and it is inherent in that design. Sure, driving and set-up can help, but it is always there.

You were on CorvetteForum making every excuse possible why the C7 will be slower now you brought them over here

[JG853]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Sounds like someone that is upset that their C7 collection is obsolete now. Its ok to admit, the torch has been passed to the next generation. It has. GM didn't invest this much money in the mid-engine platform to have it come up short to the previous generation. You're delusional due to your bias for the your C7s.

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison here but here's a C8 Z51 compared to a C7 ZR1, different drivers, but lots of data to digest taking the bias out of it. The C7 ZR1 is slightly quicker but it's a lot closer than you would think. The C8 Z06 is going to dominate the C7 ZR1.

https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator...-pros-and-cons

No, I am not delusional. FE, ME, RE platforms all have advantages and disadvantages. You will see when the C8 Z06 comes out and we can revisit this. To help, we discussed this at https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...per-tadge.html

My user name is the same. Can you guess C.W's in the thread I just shared above? And that is your reference point?

[JG853]

Originally Posted by Village Idiot

You were on CorvetteForum making every excuse possible why the C7 will be slower now you brought them over here

Originally Posted by Zone5

My understanding was that the C8 Corvette (ME) exhibited slight UNDERSTEER when driven beyond it's level of adhesion, not oversteer. At least that's what the magazine testers all said. And that would make sense given that the engine is further back: less weight on the contact patches of the front tires. However, velocity coming out of the corner is maximized due to the superior traction, facilitated by the rearward weight, compared to front engine.

Virtually every clean-sheet, supercar design in existence starts with a mid-engine. Why is that? Because they handle better. The closer the CG is to the middle of the car, the more neutral the handling characteristics will be. There's no getting around that. That's why Corvette engineers have been pushing for a mid-engine car for decades.

The other big difference between the C7 and C8 is supercharging, or lack there of. The C7s had such huge problems with overheating superchargers that GM absolutely had to go back to NA for cars that would see heavy road-course use. That's why my supercharged ZL1 has 11 coolers on it. To combat overheating. Superchargers are not really suitable for prolonged road-course racing. I raced in SCCA for 15 years. I never once saw a supercharged car on the grid. I have nothing against supercharging. I own a ZL1. But supercharging isn't the best set-up for the road-course. They eventually overheat and then pull timing, causing a big loss in power.

Finally, I'm guessing the C8 ZO6 will best any C7 lap time at the Ring. But regardless, the proof is in the pudding, GM went back to NA for a reason: supercharging isn't right for the road-course. The C8 ZO6 will be the best race car for road-course use GM has ever made. BTW, the C8 factory race cars are killing it in IMSA. Gee, I wonder why?

IFirst, I was noting that the ME design has "Snap" oversteer. Secomd, I agree with you - NA is better for road racing. That said, a properly cooled SC car does very well on a road couse - See LG Motorsports cooling correction for the C7 Z06 (Which eas later adopted by GM for the C7 ZR1) - Looks similar? They do pull timing, but with the proper set-up that can be drastically reduced in terms of oil and coolant temps. Finally, I do not own a ZL1 1LE yet, but soon will, and then I can compare to my 2015 Z/28. Which will be faster? Both 6MT to 6MT. But one is SC and ine is NA... The ZL1 1LE is a better track car I am thinking. I still thing my highly modified 2700 pound C6 Z06 might be the best NA car GM ever produces. Several who race them feel the same way, especially given tge weight of a C8 Z06 at 3700 pounds+ will eat a lot if race consumables given it's weight.

I know my Highly modified C5 Z06. C6 Z06, C7 ZR1s, Z/28 are dinasours, but they still have beaten the ME platforms for years.

All this coming from a Super Dirt Late Model guy Lol. We only race NA.

Love the C8 Z06 too. I just am being honest with my expectations for it. I do tjink the C8 ZR1, if it does come out, will be the car to get!

[JG853]

Originally Posted by Village Idiot

You were on CorvetteForum making every excuse possible why the C7 will be slower now you brought them over here

I just try to keep tour expectatikns in check. Thats all.

I am in the market for a ZL1 1LE. Waiting to see what GM does with it, if anything. Do you think the 2018+ ZL1 1LE's are faster than my 5th gen NA Z/28?

[Zone5]

Any Super Late Model guy is okay with me. I used to own and race Ron Hornaday's 2003 Dr. Pepper Busch Grand National car. I raced and instructed on paved ovals for about 6 years in between stints doing SCCA road-course racing.

Racing on those paved ovals improved my road-course racing more than any other thing I can think of. Road-course guys have no idea how unforgiving a car can be. Try barreling into a banked corner in a car that will spin-out if you just jump out of the gas too quickly. You get really good at balancing the car. That, and the mind-numbing speeds you can achieve in corners. Yeah, they're all left corners, but you get so comfortable going insanely fast through those corners that your whole perspective changes.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by JG853

No, I am not delusional. FE, ME, RE platforms all have advantages and disadvantages. You will see when the C8 Z06 comes out and we can revisit this. To help, we discussed this at https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...per-tadge.html

My user name is the same. Can you guess C.W's in the thread I just shared above? And that is your reference point?

I'm not reading through that whole thread. I don't need to. I know what the C8 is capable of. I also know that in the video I posted, CW was nothing but impressed with how quick the C8 Z51 was on PS4S tires compared to his ZR1 on Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires, let me also add that the Z51 also uses a run flat version (ZP) of the PS4S tires which certainly aren't as good as even the standard PS4S. When we owned our C8 Z51, we swapped the stock wheels and tires for a set of 20"/21" Michelin PS4S tires slightly wider in the front and rear than stock and the car became even more impressive. The Z06 has even wider tires than ours did so I have no doubt the Z06 is going to be nothing short of amazing.

[JG853]

Originally Posted by Zone5

Any Super Late Model guy is okay with me. I used to own and race Ron Hornaday's 2003 Dr. Pepper Busch Grand National car. I raced and instructed on paved ovals for about 6 years in between stints doing SCCA road-course racing.

Racing on those paved ovals improved my road-course racing more than any other thing I can think of. Road-course guys have no idea how unforgiving a car can be. Try barreling into a banked corner in a car that will spin-out if you just jump out of the gas too quickly. You get really good at balancing the car. That, and the mind-numbing speeds you can achieve in corners. Yeah, they're all left corners, but you get so comfortable going insanely fast through those corners that your whole perspective changes.

That is really cool! I bet that was a lot of fun! I agree with you, the corner speeds are where the races are won due to gaining that momentum down the front and back stretches. Now a days, we are turning right down the straights to keep the cars straight. The shock technology has come a long way as have the aero on the cars. In addition the engines have as well, but mainly we run 430 CU (Some go bigger) If they only would take away the droop rule now.

Have a nice weekend.

[JG853]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I'm not reading through that whole thread. I don't need to. I know what the C8 is capable of. I also know that in the video I posted, CW was nothing but impressed with how quick the C8 Z51 was on PS4S tires compared to his ZR1 on Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires, let me also add that the Z51 also uses a run flat version (ZP) of the PS4S tires which certainly aren't as good as even the standard PS4S. When we owned our C8 Z51, we swapped the stock wheels and tires for a set of 20"/21" Michelin PS4S tires slightly wider in the front and rear than stock and the car became even more impressive. The Z06 has even wider tires than ours did so I Have no doubt drop is going to be nothing short of amazing.

You should read it. There are a number of guys who race their cars that posted in that thread (I am not referringto CW as one of them). If anything, you will learn a few things.

We all want the C8 Z to do well. To me, it is yye best flat plane crank NA engine on paper. I drove my friends 458 Speciale. It was really nice. I expect it to beat that car and that is impressive.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by JG853

I just try to keep tour expectatikns in check. Thats all.

I am in the market for a ZL1 1LE. Waiting to see what GM does with it, if anything. Do you think the 2018+ ZL1 1LE's are faster than my 5th gen NA Z/28?

Yes, the 6th gen ZL1 is quicker than a 5th gen Z28 in every way. No doubt about it.