The Future Of Muscle Cars (Electric Muscle Cars, etc.)

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Here's a nice analogy for the hobbyist segment of the auto industry. Since the early 1970s Japanese motorcycles have been faster, more reliable and even cheaper than Harley-Davidsons but yet millions of folks still purchase big, slow, obnoxious American made bikes. Why? Personality and enjoyment. Our Auto hobby is the same and will continue on this path for the foreseeable future. Fancy golf carts for commuting? Sure, if that's what you want. Personal enjoyment? I'll take any of my old smelly rambunctious V8s any day. A moderate dose of CO is good for ya, probably kills Covid.

The only problem with that analogy is millions of folks aren’t buying V8 performance cars. More like tens of thousands. Millions are buying pickup trucks, SUVs and crossovers. The electric vehicles that are coming are pickup trucks, SUVs, and crossovers. If somewhere along the line the automakers that will make hundreds of thousands of battery electric pickups, SUVs, and crossovers decide to also make a decent performance coupe, I’m all in on checking it out.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the gearheads of the past and how they insisted that performance was ending because cars were moving to newer more efficient fueling methods. I drew a clear comparison to how people now are acting the same way. Do you want to go back to those slow-ass cars from the 70s that barely ran 13s and had no options and smelled like you spilled a gallon of gas out the car and smoked everywhere and were loud AF with a 3 sp trans and 4.56 gear ratios and a 900 CFM double-pumper pouring fuel thru some stupid tunnel ram IM that sucked in hot engine bay air?? Because that was what all the gearheads back then were all swearing up and down was gonna be missed. Those cars, as good as it probably was when there was nothing else, suck by today's standards. And if those gearheads had their way then right now we'd be getting our butts kicked by every 4 cyl turbo Honda with a fart can and some teenaged punk driving it.

Performance moves on. It has to evolve and adapt. Because if it doesn't then we'd be going nowhere fast. For all these people complaining about the switch to EV, I bet you any amount of money that in 20 years they'll all be mad when they're getting left behind by every punk with an Import EV. I don't care what any of these modern day "purists" have to say. Losing sucks. Being on the losing team sucks. Going slow sucks. Being in the lane next to someone who zips by you while you look like you're standing still absolutely sucks. I don't care how loud or awesome your car sounds. Or how rowing gears makes you feel. When some punk starts showing out and acting like an a-hole and pulls up revving at you and then proceeds to leave you and embarrasses you in front of onlookers, not one of these guys here will be saying "oh but my exhaust sounds good and I have a manual trans".

Now if you guys want slow cars and want to be on the losing side then be my guest. But when things change you can bet your bottom that I'll be jumping ship.


Whether it's the Imports doing it or the Domestics it doesn't matter. It's still an issue that the vast majority of the population is set against. Some of you can't even start your car at night because it is too loud. Some of you have to resort to illegally obtaining inspection stickers because you can't legitimately go to the DMV and pass. Some of you have to fraudulently trick your ECUs because of bypassing emmissions equipment. We all know this. Do you think the government cares if it's a Honda doing it or a Chevy? No. So how long did you guys think this was gonna last? LOL!! Not for nothing, but how many of us have committed federal offenses in the past year? LOL!! Which kinda brings up another point about how certain racing topics aren't allowed but I can make a post detailing in length how to eliminate federally mandated emission equipment, obtain an inspection sticker, trick the ECU, and use off-road equipment on public roads, hahaha!!


Well those days are fading fast and soon to be gone for good. People can either sulk and cry and complain or they can get with the times and enjoy the new tech. That's just the way it is. The number of people who are against the changes are dwindling. There are way more people for it. That's the reality.

Ashame. All of that text, and you still clearly missed the whole point of this thread. It isn't about what you think the car buying public wants. It isn't what I think the car buying public wants. Its what the manufacturers perceive that the car buying public wants that will drive the type of cars and content that we will see and have in the market. Additionally, the manufacturers must stand ready to correct its product line if what they perceived as desirable is in fact not what the consumers really want in an automobile.

While the resurgent muscle car reincarnation was fun, in reality it only represents a small fraction of cars actually made and sold today. However, there is still a strong desire for v8 gasoline engines, and we will still see that format represented by truck, niche sport cars and foreign car manufacturing.

[BlaqWhole]

I'm simply embracing the inevitable. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can stop the impending demise of gas powered vehicles. However what should we do? Sit around and mope all day and cry and complain about how some meaningless metric will be missing when we'll have faster better cars? I'm taking a different approach. I choose to weigh in all the factors, look at the pros and cons, and pick the better of the two.

Ultimately, what is better? Looks, sound, feel? Or performance? Remember back when the GT350R got it's behind toasted by the ZL1 in every performance category but MT gave Ford the win because the GT350R "sounds better", has some kind of "special feel" to it, "looks better", and other meaningless BS they shouted that has nothing to do with anything? I didn't care because the ZL1 hands down whupped the GT350R. The ZL1 outperformed the GT350R despite the made up fairy-tale crap those editors drummed up. That's how I look at the future of this industry. Sound, looks, and imagining some non-existent feel or a car means nothing to me if I'm staring at tailights. So yea I'll miss certain aspects of gas enignes. But ultimately what drives me is the performance.

EVs are coming whether we like it or not. Maybe to some of you this will be the dark ages. But to me, I see the bright side. I welcome it.

[Silveradoss573]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Here's a nice analogy for the hobbyist segment of the auto industry. Since the early 1970s Japanese motorcycles have been faster, more reliable and even cheaper than Harley-Davidsons but yet millions of folks still purchase big, slow, obnoxious American made bikes. Why? Personality and enjoyment. Our Auto hobby is the same and will continue on this path for the foreseeable future. Fancy golf carts for commuting? Sure, if that's what you want. Personal enjoyment? I'll take any of my old smelly rambunctious V8s any day. A moderate dose of CO is good for ya, probably kills Covid.

Man that's a sweet ride!

[ariZona28]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The only problem with that analogy is millions of folks aren’t buying V8 performance cars. More like tens of thousands. Millions are buying pickup trucks, SUVs and crossovers.

Sometimes I can ramble so you may have missed my point. That being a large number of people have continued to purchase the big HDs over the past 50 years even though they are not as fast, reliable or as economical as their import competitors. While their reasons may vary the individuals I socialize with do so for the overall riding experience. I know the majority of auto buyers purchase their vehicles as a means to "just get around" and the segment that considers their car more than just a transportation appliance is very small and may indeed be shrinking.

[ariZona28]

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

Man that's a sweet ride!

Thanks man. It was my Dads when I was a kid, I've been turning wrenches on it since I was 13. I suppose a middle-aged individual 40 years from now will reminisce about when his Father came home from work and he helped him insert the charging cord in the family Tesla. Oh, the memories.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Here's a nice analogy for the hobbyist segment of the auto industry. Since the early 1970s Japanese motorcycles have been faster, more reliable and even cheaper than Harley-Davidsons but yet millions of folks still purchase big, slow, obnoxious American made bikes. Why? Personality and enjoyment. Our Auto hobby is the same and will continue on this path for the foreseeable future. Fancy golf carts for commuting? Sure, if that's what you want. Personal enjoyment? I'll take any of my old smelly rambunctious V8s any day. A moderate dose of CO is good for ya, probably kills Covid.

Ok. You spend $25K on a HD. I'll spend $10K on a M109R Boss. And then let's race for titles. Nostalgia is cool and all. But it ends when I'm paying more money for inferior, poorly built, slower, unreliable products. But hey, I can direct you to a forum where they do this stuff all the time.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Sometimes I can ramble so you may have missed my point. That being a large number of people have continued to purchase the big HDs over the past 50 years even though they are not as fast, reliable or as economical as their import competitors. While their reasons may vary the individuals I socialize with do so for the overall riding experience. I know the majority of auto buyers purchase their vehicles as a means to "just get around" and the segment that considers their car more than just a transportation appliance is very small and may indeed be shrinking.

I totally got your point. Thing is, performance cars with V8 are a drop in the bucket on the automotive landscape. And dropping fast. The fact that GM dropped Chevy Cruze at a point that they were selling about 200k vehicles a year and kept Camaro which has been cruising ( ) along at @ 30k/ year is some small evidence that they at least understand the need to be present in the segment.

If you add up all the Mustangs, Chargers, Challengers, and Camaros that are sold with V8 engines, the number is small and dropping. In your Harley scenario, there’s a fairly sturdy volume of product sold just because it’s a Harley. Not so with V8 performance cars. They could (and will) completely go away and most of America would never notice. Sad, but true.

I find it interesting that Ford is saying “we’ll keep making V8 as long as customers are buying them” when they see the same data that I’m seeing that’s showing that number dropping year after year after year. Just positions them for a clear explanation for when they actually do drop V8.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I totally got your point. Thing is, performance cars with V8 are a drop in the bucket on the automotive landscape. And dropping fast. The fact that GM dropped Chevy Cruze at a point that they were selling about 200k vehicles a year and kept Camaro which has been cruising ( ) along at @ 30k/ year is some small evidence that they at least understand the need to be present in the segment.

If you add up all the Mustangs, Chargers, Challengers, and Camaros that are sold with V8 engines, the number is small and dropping. In your Harley scenario, there’s a fairly sturdy volume of product sold just because it’s a Harley. Not so with V8 performance cars. They could (and will) completely go away and most of America would never notice. Sad, but true.

I find it interesting that Ford is saying “we’ll keep making V8 as long as customers are buying them” when they see the same data that I’m seeing that’s showing that number dropping year after year after year. Just positions them for a clear explanation for when they actually do drop V8.

I'll add to that. Ford has also positioned the Mach E to transfer the Mustang name when they drop the S650. Kind of like what they did to the Thunderbird in the 70s.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Thanks man. It was my Dads when I was a kid, I've been turning wrenches on it since I was 13. I suppose a middle-aged individual 40 years from now will reminisce about when his Father came home from work and he helped him insert the charging cord in the family Tesla. Oh, the memories.

You know what, i've wondered about the aftermarket industry after the ICE to BEV transition. Will they exist at all? Today's speed shop will be what in the future? Manufactures are going to lock out tuners if not already doing so. I seriously doubt you'll be able to swap out motors. I guess suspension could still be in play and maybe a hood scoop from Autozone..... the outlook is bleak. Your theoretical 2 motor future EV Camaro will be the same as everyone elses aside from aesthetics perhaps. I don't know. Why would we line up at the track and race if they're all the same? Maybe SuperCruise has a race mode and we can eat a hoagie during the 1/4 mile

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I'll add to that. Ford has also positioned the Mach E to transfer the Mustang name when they drop the S650. Kind of like what they did to the Thunderbird in the 70s.

True. Their long-term intent is to make Mustang a sub-brand. Same with Bronco and F-150. All will have a mix of ICE/Hybrid and BEV models. For Mustang, expect the Mustang Coupe to continue on as a 2.3T hybrid and possibly a 5.0L hybrid. They are also looking at a BEV sedan in the Mustang portfolio.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm simply embracing the inevitable. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can stop the impending demise of gas powered vehicles. However what should we do? Sit around and mope all day and cry and complain about how some meaningless metric will be missing when we'll have faster better cars? I'm taking a different approach. I choose to weigh in all the factors, look at the pros and cons, and pick the better of the two.

Ultimately, what is better? Looks, sound, feel? Or performance? Remember back when the GT350R got it's behind toasted by the ZL1 in every performance category but MT gave Ford the win because the GT350R "sounds better", has some kind of "special feel" to it, "looks better", and other meaningless BS they shouted that has nothing to do with anything? I didn't care because the ZL1 hands down whupped the GT350R. The ZL1 outperformed the GT350R despite the made up fairy-tale crap those editors drummed up. That's how I look at the future of this industry. Sound, looks, and imagining some non-existent feel or a car means nothing to me if I'm staring at tailights. So yea I'll miss certain aspects of gas enignes. But ultimately what drives me is the performance.

EVs are coming whether we like it or not. Maybe to some of you this will be the dark ages. But to me, I see the bright side. I welcome it.

Ok finally your first sentence! I can dig it. Ultimately there is very little that I can do about it other than hope. It is because of this and the fact that I have exhausted purchasing camaros (but not corvette) that I am currently looking at the pickups as my next new purchase. I look at them because they offer the things that I like; Full sized, v8 power, comfort and convenience, and attractiveness. Its ashame but today's cars no longer do it for me other than for pure transportation.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by snizzle

You know what, i've wondered about the aftermarket industry after the ICE to BEV transition. Will they exist at all? Today's speed shop will be what in the future? Manufactures are going to lock out tuners if not already doing so. I seriously doubt you'll be able to swap out motors. I guess suspension could still be in play and maybe a hood scoop from Autozone..... the outlook is bleak. Your theoretical 2 motor future EV Camaro will be the same as everyone elses aside from aesthetics perhaps. I don't know. Why would we line up at the track and race if they're all the same? Maybe SuperCruise has a race mode and we can eat a hoagie during the 1/4 mile

Well modding has slowly transformed into customization anyway. Only a very small percentage of us Hotrodders did actual performance mods. Most people prefer to keep their warranty. But there will still be suspension mods, braking upgrades, etc. Maybe performance programs to add tunes or remove limiters. But it'll likely be from the manufacturer instead of aftermarket companies. Most likely they'll all have to adhere to safety restrictions and EPA stuff.

However mods and aftermarket companies will continue to exist as long as it remains profitable. I'd just be curious to see the demand when some kid saves up $20K for a stage 4 performance package to get 800 RWHP and still end up losing to a stock Tesla.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

But it’s not just acceleration. That’s all that WE talk about on THIS site. Evaluated measure for measure, the new crop of BEVs are simply better vehicles all-around than the vehicles that they will be replacing. There are many advantages from a buyer’s point of view and even more advantages from a manufacturer’s point of view. One of the reasons automakers (except Toyota) are not fighting the shift. And the only reason Toyota is fighting it is because they are significantly behind other automakers in BEV development because of their focus on hybrids and fuel cells.

By going to skateboard platforms, automakers can repackage the interior to provide more room, flat floors, and creative storage and option content. Plus automakers can reduce their vehicle development costs. EPA certification is significantly easier because…no emissions to test. And no engine calibrations to certify. And here’s where the automakers really ring the cash register. Fewer platforms. GM will replace Alpha I and II, Delta, Chi, and Gamma with BEV3. Then they’ll replace T1 and 31XX with BET. Seven platforms reduced to two. Plus they’ll make variants that they haven’t even considered before off of those two platforms. Products like the EV600 and EV410 off the BET platform. They’ve actually started a new company, BrightDrop, off of the BET platform to make BEV delivery vans to compete with Rivian. Reducing platforms saves billions of dollars that can now be redirected to further BEV product development.

Now, back to “better cars”. Compare the styling and content of the Cadillac Lyriq to the Cadillac XT5 and XT6, ignoring the propulsion system. It’s no contest. Lyriq will be a much better car. Pickup trucks will be an interesting comparison. It will depend on whether the buyer is buying a pickup truck because they like the idea of a pickup truck as a primary family vehicle (most buyers) or whether they’re buying a pickup truck because they actual tow and haul stuff more than a couple times a year. For that second group, the transition will likely take longer because of the effect of towing and hauling on battery range and life. But for a majority, an F150 Lightning may be a better all around purchase than an F-150. Especially when you include lifetime fueling costs and routine maintence in the total cost of ownership mathematics.

I hope it goes better than when GM gave us the W-platform in 1988, replacing V8 rwd for more efficient (for GM) fwd V6 auto.

The G-body rwd was very popular where I come from (my first new car). Grand National, 442, Monte Carlo SS for performance oriented families. I believe this transition was about when pickups and SUVs started to rise in popularity.

I ended up switching to Honda for my utilitarian family needs because they built the best blah mobile IMO.