The Future Of Muscle Cars (Electric Muscle Cars, etc.)

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The difference is, 100 years ago the government and the auto industry were not faced with the daunting task of carbon emissions reduction. The government has put carbon reduction far ahead of the wants and likes of a small portion of the auto buying public. Thing is, this time the auto industry not only agrees, they're getting out ahead of where the government wants them to be. So, even though the 2035 Executive Orders are not law, the automakers are not fighting the direction the way they usually do when the government tries to toughen fuel economy standards. They're doing it on their own. They are even working to make their plants carbon neutral and there is no legislation or directive telling them they have to do that.

In the strongest of ironies, as I typed this response, Ford was airing a commercial on their electric future. Think the government is telling them they need to do that? Not a chance.

So the net result will be that the Legislature will be bypassed and the Executive Orders become realty.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

So the net result will be that the Legislature will be bypassed and the Executive Orders become realty.

I'm not sure how you even got there from what I said.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I'm not sure how you even got there from what I said.

From your reply

1) The way state and federal government works is the Executive Branch (Governor, President) does not make laws. They can direct the legislature to draft legislation,

2) b̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ l̶e̶g̶i̶s̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ h̶a̶s̶ t̶o̶ b̶e̶ v̶o̶t̶e̶d̶ o̶n̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ r̶e̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ l̶e̶g̶i̶s̶l̶a̶t̶u̶r̶e̶s̶ (̶C̶o̶n̶g̶r̶e̶s̶s̶, s̶t̶a̶t̶e̶ l̶e̶g̶i̶s̶l̶a̶t̶u̶r̶e̶s̶)̶.

3) S̶o̶, b̶o̶t̶t̶o̶m̶ l̶i̶n̶e̶, n̶o̶n̶e̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ 2̶0̶3̶5̶ s̶t̶u̶f̶f̶ i̶s̶ e̶n̶f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ l̶a̶w̶. P̶e̶r̶i̶o̶d̶.

4) So, even though the 2035 Executive Orders are not law, the automakers are not fighting the direction

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

From your reply

1) The way state and federal government works is the Executive Branch (Governor, President) does not make laws. They can direct the legislature to draft legislation,

2) b̶u̶t̶ t̶h̶e̶ l̶e̶g̶i̶s̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ h̶a̶s̶ t̶o̶ b̶e̶ v̶o̶t̶e̶d̶ o̶n̶ i̶n̶ t̶h̶e̶ r̶e̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶ l̶e̶g̶i̶s̶l̶a̶t̶u̶r̶e̶s̶ (̶C̶o̶n̶g̶r̶e̶s̶s̶, s̶t̶a̶t̶e̶ l̶e̶g̶i̶s̶l̶a̶t̶u̶r̶e̶s̶)̶.

3) S̶o̶, b̶o̶t̶t̶o̶m̶ l̶i̶n̶e̶, n̶o̶n̶e̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶e̶ 2̶0̶3̶5̶ s̶t̶u̶f̶f̶ i̶s̶ e̶n̶f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ l̶a̶w̶. P̶e̶r̶i̶o̶d̶.

4) So, even though the 2035 Executive Orders are not law, the automakers are not fighting the direction

OK, I can track with that. It is still likely that states will vote in some form of legislation. The automakers are already heading down that path and don't necessarily need the legislation to get there, but the legislation may very well have other things that automakers would not impact directly like funding for charging station infrastructure, incentives for businesses to reduce their carbon footprint, et cetera. There's also the nagging issue of closing loopholes related to sales of used ICE vehicles, including company sponsored CPO and new vehicle purchases brought in from neighboring states.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Just to be clear, several states have had Executive Orders issued from the Governor's office. The way state and federal government works is the Executive Branch (Governor, President) does not make laws. They can direct the legislature to draft legislation, but the legislation still has to be voted on in the respective legislatures (Congress, state legislatures). So, bottom line, none of the 2035 stuff is enforceable law. Period.

Now, here's the fun part. Car companies are operating AHEAD of where the proposed bans are headed. GM, Ford, Stellantis, VW, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, even McLaren are all positioning to be 100% electrified by 2035. Electrified and electric do not mean the same thing. Sorta like squares and rectangles. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. All electric vehicles are electrified, but not all electrified vehicles are electric. Hybrids and plug-in hybrids factor into the equation except for GM. So, ICE vehicles will still be around post 2035, no matter what a dozen or so states choose to do. But most if not all will have some form of electrification included. This is closer to BlaqWhole's carburator / fuel injection scenario. If you want an ICE, you can get one, but it is gonna have a hybrid system included. That's where the manufacturers are headed, and they're headed there no matter what various state governments do.

To me a gas-powered vehicle is a gas-powered vehicle regardless of what other methods there are to additionally power it. Does gas power it? Then to me, even if wind, rain, snow, electric, etc power it as well, it is still gas-powered. So if these states are saying that the ban of gas-powered vehicles will take place by 2035, then if you put gas in it, it is gas-powered. One report I read mentioned that some states will sell electric-only vehicles (or some words to that effect). I didn't read the article in it's entirety, I just glossed over it until I got bored and figured I read enough of it.

Either way the changes are coming. Most likely all the diehards won't be around when the change happens. Or again, like I mentioned, there will be huge incentives and bonuses to switch over along with the threat of the outlawing of ICE vehicles which will make them a paperweight taking up space. Like I said, if people are offered tax breaks and this and that, I'm betting that all these "diehards" will give in when they or their wives (or husbands) start factoring in retirement funds, college funds for the grandkids, the house needing a new roof, vacations, etc. Yea I'm blabbing on but I'm just pointing out how fickle people are when the tire meets the road.

[BlaqWhole]

Not for nothin, despite how I know I sound, I do enjoy my exhaust notes. I do not enjoy the smell of gas and emissions and uncatted cars and race gas fumes etc. That nonsense I can do without as I'm sure 98% of the population would agree. So all that is left is the exhaust note. Some guy can program an exhaust note to run with the RPMs of an EV. Or make an app that comes with the car to simulate an exhaust note...perhaps you can even choose the vehicle you'll want your car to sound like on the inside. That way YOU can hear it inside the car without annoying everyone around you outside the car. I'm sure those will be available. Outside of that all that is left is the performance. And nobody with an ounce of common sense can deny that EVs will be much faster. They already are. So for me this is all like having my cake and eating it too.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

To me a gas-powered vehicle is a gas-powered vehicle regardless of what other methods there are to additionally power it. Does gas power it? Then to me, even if wind, rain, snow, electric, etc power it as well, it is still gas-powered. So if these states are saying that the ban of gas-powered vehicles will take place by 2035, then if you put gas in it, it is gas-powered. One report I read mentioned that some states will sell electric-only vehicles (or some words to that effect). I didn't read the article in it's entirety, I just glossed over it until I got bored and figured I read enough of it.

Either way the changes are coming. Most likely all the diehards won't be around when the change happens. Or again, like I mentioned, there will be huge incentives and bonuses to switch over along with the threat of the outlawing of ICE vehicles which will make them a paperweight taking up space. Like I said, if people are offered tax breaks and this and that, I'm betting that all these "diehards" will give in when they or their wives (or husbands) start factoring in retirement funds, college funds for the grandkids, the house needing a new roof, vacations, etc. Yea I'm blabbing on but I'm just pointing out how fickle people are when the tire meets the road.

You're not wrong. You're just over-applying the situation. There's about a dozen states that have or are considering ICE bans. Which means there are 38 states that are not. So what will consumers in those states drive? A lot will drive BEVs. But a lot will also be driving HEV and PHEV. Both of those have ICE. Some companies (GM) may decide to only offer BEV, but some (Ford, Toyota, Stellantis, BMW, Mercedes) will still offer HEV and PHEV.

Of the 12 states that have or are considering ICE bans, what's the likelihood that all 12 will end up with the same outcome? Fairly low in my estimation. Some might actually pass legislation that says no new cars sold with ICE after 2035. Some may extend it out to 2040 or even later. Some might not be comfortable with 100% zero emissions vehicles and find a way to include HEV and PHEV in the equation. We won't know until the specific legislative pieces are actually brought to the table. Remember, the original California ZEV Mandate required BEV as 10% of all new vehicles sold in California by 2003. That ruled morphed several times to the point where California had not achieved the 10% mark until 1st quarter 2021. Only 18 years after the original "mandate".

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not for nothin, despite how I know I sound, I do enjoy my exhaust notes. I do not enjoy the smell of gas and emissions and uncatted cars and race gas fumes etc. That nonsense I can do without as I'm sure 98% of the population would agree. So all that is left is the exhaust note. Some guy can program an exhaust note to run with the RPMs of an EV. Or make an app that comes with the car to simulate an exhaust note...perhaps you can even choose the vehicle you'll want your car to sound like on the inside. That way YOU can hear it inside the car without annoying everyone around you outside the car. I'm sure those will be available. Outside of that all that is left is the performance. And nobody with an ounce of common sense can deny that EVs will be much faster. They already are. So for me this is all like having my cake and eating it too.

Check this out...

[mickss]

Ford Invests Billions in New Electric Vehicle and Electric Vehicle Battery Factories. https://www.environmentalleader.com/...ery-factories/

You can try and hold on to the old ways or except new technology but either way ICE in some way or fashion will be replaced, just like the horse has replaced. You may or may not like it but that`s just how progress works. From mans first attempt to fly at Kittyhawk to landing on the moon, progress marches forward.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by mickss

Ford Invests Billions in New Electric Vehicle and Electric Vehicle Battery Factories. https://www.environmentalleader.com/...ery-factories/

You can try and hold on to the old ways or except new technology but either way ICE in some way or fashion will be replaced, just like the horse has replaced. You may or may not like it but that`s just how progress works. From mans first attempt to fly at Kittyhawk to landing on the moon, progress marches forward.

I've been watching college football most of the day today (Go Blue!). These are commercials I've been seeing. More than once each. Keep in mind that college football viewers have historically been the audience for beer commercials, truck commercials, and, for those of us old enough to remember, cigarette commercials...



https://www.ispot.tv/ad/qqpB/2022-hy...he-squeegee-t1

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

OK, I can track with that. It is still likely that states will vote in some form of legislation. The automakers are already heading down that path and don't necessarily need the legislation to get there, but the legislation may very well have other things that automakers would not impact directly like funding for charging station infrastructure, incentives for businesses to reduce their carbon footprint, et cetera. There's also the nagging issue of closing loopholes related to sales of used ICE vehicles, including company sponsored CPO and new vehicle purchases brought in from neighboring states.

We are fortunate to have you contributing to this forum.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not for nothin, despite how I know I sound, I do enjoy my exhaust notes. I do not enjoy the smell of gas and emissions and uncatted cars and race gas fumes etc. That nonsense I can do without as I'm sure 98% of the population would agree. So all that is left is the exhaust note. Some guy can program an exhaust note to run with the RPMs of an EV. Or make an app that comes with the car to simulate an exhaust note...perhaps you can even choose the vehicle you'll want your car to sound like on the inside. That way YOU can hear it inside the car without annoying everyone around you outside the car. I'm sure those will be available. Outside of that all that is left is the performance. And nobody with an ounce of common sense can deny that EVs will be much faster. They already are. So for me this is all like having my cake and eating it too.

You should sell you cars and buy a Tesla. No need to wait. Enjoy

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You're not wrong. You're just over-applying the situation. There's about a dozen states that have or are considering ICE bans. Which means there are 38 states that are not. So what will consumers in those states drive? A lot will drive BEVs. But a lot will also be driving HEV and PHEV. Both of those have ICE. Some companies (GM) may decide to only offer BEV, but some (Ford, Toyota, Stellantis, BMW, Mercedes) will still offer HEV and PHEV.

Of the 12 states that have or are considering ICE bans, what's the likelihood that all 12 will end up with the same outcome? Fairly low in my estimation. Some might actually pass legislation that says no new cars sold with ICE after 2035. Some may extend it out to 2040 or even later. Some might not be comfortable with 100% zero emissions vehicles and find a way to include HEV and PHEV in the equation. We won't know until the specific legislative pieces are actually brought to the table. Remember, the original California ZEV Mandate required BEV as 10% of all new vehicles sold in California by 2003. That ruled morphed several times to the point where California had not achieved the 10% mark until 1st quarter 2021. Only 18 years after the original "mandate".

Well to me it goes beyond that. What happens when they get banned in other countries? Will sales in the US be strong enough to justify or support their continued existence? At that point, even if there are no bans, it won't matter because no manufacturers will be producing them anyway. Or the ones that will still produce them will have to jack the price sky high to make a profit. How much you think these diehards will be willing to pay? Or what about the costs of gas itself? When more and more EVs show up and less and less ICEs are out there gas will continue to increase. At what point do you think these diehards will figure that it is too expensive to even drive them? $5 a gallon? $6 a gallon? States banning them is just one piece of the puzzle. At some point cost to produce or operate will make people switch. And again, the government will start offering incentives, tax breaks, etc to get people to switch. On top of that, if even 1 state bans them that will be a heavy blow to an already dying brand. Do you really think that anyone of these people will still be in support when all these factors stare them in the face as a brand is slowly but surely dying around them? LOL!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by mickss

Ford Invests Billions in New Electric Vehicle and Electric Vehicle Battery Factories. https://www.environmentalleader.com/...ery-factories/

You can try and hold on to the old ways or except new technology but either way ICE in some way or fashion will be replaced, just like the horse has replaced. You may or may not like it but that`s just how progress works. From mans first attempt to fly at Kittyhawk to landing on the moon, progress marches forward.

My point exactly.

Originally Posted by hotlap

You should sell you cars and buy a Tesla. No need to wait. Enjoy

I plan to sooner rather than later. I'll be making the switch soon enough. Mostly for the performance. If I start losing races to dweebs in Teslas then I'm jumping ship.