Perceptions Die... OK Say Again Y Foreign is Better

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Any discussion?

[Angrybird 12]

Other than Chevrolets, I have owned only Pontiacs and Saturns...Right now I have..
1982 Chevy El Camino Super Sport
2000 Pontiac Sunfire GT Convertible
2007 Chevy HHR LT
and a 2008 Saturn Sky.

So unless I buy another used car (Saturn or Pontiac) I will only be buying new Chevrolets.....

[vee8]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

So is GM... but Ford's "Roll" is much like the one that gave Toyota a bunch of BS perception that was undeserved. The thing is that I'm trying to be nice about this... because Ford is a domestic.

Usually, most fan boy's are pretty dumb and just blind brand loyal. That's all fine and well, but you appear to be much brighter than the usual, "OMG....Chevy rocks" crowd.

It's great to love that which you profess to love, but it really seems like you are wanting to see only what you are wanting to see.

About Ford being on a roll.....I was in this marketing meeting the other day and the speaker was doing a presentation on brands, and one of the things she spoke about was how Ford didn't go after gov't money and how innovative they are, and even made mention at how their quality, R & D, and reliability was better. she knew NOTHING about cars, but this is the perception that Ford has now. Is it all true? Of course not. Has Ford been doing a lot of things right? I think so. Ford is on a roll......some of it perceived, but definitely a roll.

I drive a Ford right now, but I feel no sense of loyalty to them at all. I have never gotten the brand loyalty thing, because Ford, GM, or any car company only cares about the least amount of car they can give you while acquiring the most money from you to get you to buy that car. People who are brand loyal, in my opinion, always come off looking foolish.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by vee8

I have never gotten the brand loyalty thing...

And some people can't. It's okay.

Ford is on a roll...I find this to be true. I just saw a Taurus SHO yesterday, in fact....bigger than I expected; but nice, inside and out. Take a look at their trucks, their hybrids, and anything else they make right now...they've got very good product, most may not be class-leading, but they are still very competitive.

What I think Cmicasa is trying to say (and I don't mean to speak for you, bud); is that they are not on as MUCH of a roll as seems to be the case. Which is also true.

[The_Blur]

I agree that Hummer buyers probably buy because it represents an all-American brand, but SUV buyers tend to have more loyalty to less expensive products. Off-roaders will be more likely to buy a truck, so I'm feeling confident that GM can recoup the vast majority of its lost sales from Hummer. Since it was never treated like a core brand, Hummer never really had a shot with GM, which I always felt was disappointing. I wanted GM to incorporate Hummer as a sort of Jeep alternative, with a smaller model to compete more directly with the Wrangler. This did not come to fruition, so that sort of product would have to come from Chevrolet or GMC if it ever returns to the GM lineup. Let's remember that GM used to sell the Tracker as a small SUV platform as Geo and Chevrolet brands. In summary, you are probably right to point out that the American buyers who do want to keep their money in America will probably stop buying the big, American SUVs from Hummer since it is not longer an American brand; however, we should remember that Chrysler has been touting itself as American despite its long-standing import status as owned by Daimler, Cerberus, and now Fiat. It might just be possible for some Chinese communists to advertise the Hummer brand as American, despite the obvious fact that this sale would probably have been investigated by the House Committee on Un-American Activities decades ago.

Pontiac could have been great. If I had the authority, I would have made Pontiac the sporty division that it always wanted to be. I would have revived the GTO and Firebird. The Trans Am had licensing issues, so that may have never returned in its original form, but the Firebird Formula would return with a vengeance as a Camaro sibling. The Cobalt SS would be ported to Pontiac as a high-performance compact with flashy styling specifically designed to get the young import crowd to move to the domestic market. It would feature a wide variety of aftermarket options from leading companies, including rims, tires, performance parts, and additional warranties. A similar hatchback would be developed to catch that import crowd that drools over the xB and Cube. The Solstice would stay in its current form. Pontiac would produce a performance truck to compete in rally racing events. With a drag-racing GTO, a road-worthy Cobalt alternative in both coupe, a show-winning hatchback, a track-dominant Firebird, and an off-roading truck, the Pontiac brand would have dominant products in each performance division. Unfortunately, I am not empowered to make these decisions, and the research and development would cost tens of millions. It is very understandable that this did not come to pass.

Buick is developing a great lineup. With its expansion overseas, I'm hoping that more people will see Buick as respectable here as it is seen abroad. I want to see a Buick muscle car. That will give it something that will cause enthusiasts to proclaim its return to glory. Until that happens, the brand is as impotent as Toyota since the loss of the Supra. There's really not much pride in TRD since then. Buick has become a luxury brand that isn't seen as luxurious as Cadillac but doesn't have a performance brand on which to fall back. Chevrolet, for instance, has the semi-luxurious Malibu and Impala, but people unsatisfied with that luxury can still find attractive products with the Super Sport label. Buick has no such label to make its attractive products shout to customers. Buick needs a performance label. Buick has been doing a good job of picking competitors. GM has worked closely with Asian designers to keep the Buick brand desirable in China where it has grown the most. In effect, Buick has made itself a competitor with such brands as Acura and Lexus. These are great competitors for Buick because Cadillac has a more European target when it comes to luxury. Having a brand specialized toward Eastern luxury competition makes Buick a great niche brand.

Pontiac and Saturn buyers alike will be most likely to head to the Chevrolet division. Chevrolet has been great with recent products. The Malibu and Camaro reflect superior styling. I'm not a big fan of the truck redesign, but I also have no interest in trucks. Chevrolet must keep up the good work with future product updates. I'd like to see a more aggressive front end on the HHR and Cobalt. I'd also like to see AWD become a premium option on both of those cars sometime in the future. Additionally, I'd like to see the Aveo become attractive. That car could break cameras the way it looks now. Finally, let's keep the Corvette hot. I'm terrified that the new one will break tradition. For a car to be a Corvette, it has to have 4 horizontal round lights, fenders that blend with the overall body shape, a low grille, a smooth and flat rear, and a limit of 2 seats. The new design breaks some of these standards.

I fear that Saab buyers will not stay with GM. Saab is very unlike most GM brands, and this seems to be the largest potential loss for GM.

GM will keep many of its buyers. I'm hoping that GM also manages to steal some market share from the broad range of inferior brands.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by vee8

Usually, most fan boy's are pretty dumb and just blind brand loyal. That's all fine and well, but you appear to be much brighter than the usual, "OMG....Chevy rocks" crowd.

It's great to love that which you profess to love, but it really seems like you are wanting to see only what you are wanting to see.

Ford is on a roll......some of it perceived, but definitely a roll.

People who are brand loyal, in my opinion, always come off looking foolish.

Difference tho my kind sir is that I come.. bearing FACTS, and a spectacular understanding of what marketing is as it pertains to the reality of things.

For instance... Perception is that Toyota is the most fuel efficient full line car maker... it is not. Land Rover is perceived as quality suv maker... it is not. Marketing picks up where truth falls short. GM has, for the last 15 years, had some pretty sad marketing executives:(

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

the OHV stigma... for some reason despite the engine's contemporary configuration, superior HP and fuel efficiency and low maintenance... GM still allows peoples idiotic perceptions... caused by even more idiotic Media, to influence their use of this engine company wide as the V8 of choice. They have tested successfully Direct-Injection in the Small-Block as well as HCCI.

...

OHC vs OHV Weight... SIZE

People often fail to see in the Liters vs Liters argument is WEIGHT and SIZE... specifically when engines are "dressed..." which is really the only way to run them anyway.. For example...

In a comparison somewhere between the weight of the LS7 7.0L, LSA 6.2L S/C versus the Ford 5.4L S/C... the LS7 was lighter. In fact, if I remember correctly the LSA weighed in at approx 490lbs...including the addition of a SuperCharger ... the LS7... 458 pounds, while the Supercharged 5.4L in the GT500 I could swear weighs about 740lbs...

Generally speaking, I agree that the CSB is underappreciated by some. But GM cant really do much to change the perception of these engines. They have more important things to do than go on a PR campaign for the small block. I supposed they could advertise that the 430 hp Corvette (manual) gets better highway fuel economy than a V6 Accord coupe (manual).

Weight, I thought the LSA weighs more than that. I think the LS9 is 530 lbs and I doubt the LSA is a full 40 lbs less. I don't know enough about the weight of the different components between the two engines to know which should be heavier. Anyway I'm pretty sure that the LS7 is closer to 440 lbs. I have no clue about the 5.4L, but 740 lbs sounds about right for a DOHC supercharged iron block, which is the heaviest configuration that you can have for a V8.

[vee8]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

Difference tho my kind sir is that I come.. bearing FACTS, and a spectacular understanding of what marketing is as it pertains to the reality of things.

For instance... Perception is that Toyota is the most fuel efficient full line car maker... it is not. Land Rover is perceived as quality suv maker... it is not. Marketing picks up where truth falls short. GM has, for the last 15 years, had some pretty sad marketing executives:(

Marketing...truth...facts....all of it is under interpretation of who writes it and who reads it.

The real fact is, and I don't like anything that Toyota makes, but the fact is, they have sold a helluva lot of cars because the people who bought them loved them. People that previously bought domestic cars quit buying them because they hated them.

[vee8]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

And some people can't. It's okay.

Ford is on a roll...I find this to be true. I just saw a Taurus SHO yesterday, in fact....bigger than I expected; but nice, inside and out. Take a look at their trucks, their hybrids, and anything else they make right now...they've got very good product, most may not be class-leading, but they are still very competitive.

What I think Cmicasa is trying to say (and I don't mean to speak for you, bud); is that they are not on as MUCH of a roll as seems to be the case. Which is also true.

I agree with all you said here. I'm not trying to beat up the guy. He just seems a lot brighter than the typical fan boy.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

And some people can't. It's okay.

Ford is on a roll...I find this to be true. I just saw a Taurus SHO yesterday, in fact....bigger than I expected; but nice, inside and out. Take a look at their trucks, their hybrids, and anything else they make right now...they've got very good product, most may not be class-leading, but they are still very competitive.

What I think Cmicasa is trying to say (and I don't mean to speak for you, bud); is that they are not on as MUCH of a roll as seems to be the case. Which is also true.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by vee8

Marketing...truth...facts....all of it is under interpretation of who writes it and who reads it.

The real fact is, and I don't like anything that Toyota makes, but the fact is, they have sold a helluva lot of cars because the people who bought them loved them. People that previously bought domestic cars quit buying them because they hated them.

This also pertains to Hyundai. What's funny is despite all the constant Foreign-Car lover rant about Hyundai being the new Toyota... by people such as Jerry Flint (Forbes) it seems that they act more like the OLD GM. During the first quarter of 2009 more than 33 percent of Hyundai's first quarter sales of 95,854 units were fleet sales. Rental car sales were 35 percent of Kia's sales during the same period. I'm sure during Mr. Flint's rant about Hyundai's rise and GM's fall he neglected to mention that. Funny as he used to mention it ALL THE TIME when GM had heavy fleet sales.. but never to that degree I might add.

OH.. And YES Hyundai sold more Sonatas than GM in June, but once again they did so via Avis and Hertz.. and wasn't June 1st the day that GM filed Chapt 11??? So let me get this straight.. GM was in BK during the month of June with production suspended and consumer confidence at an all time low waiting to see the outcome... and this clown (Flint) used that exact month as a gauge of how much better U think Hyundai's Sonata is compared to the Malibu??? Talk about an EFFING IDIOT.

Furthermore I find it funnier that the Malibu had no trouble beating the Sonata the very next month by a hefty margin. All while having the Impala selling right next to it with even slightly better numbers. Fact is some morons should have used the Impala as a comparison in this charade. It is more Fleet Heavy than the Malibu. The Malibu is extremely high in Retail sales.

Mr. Flint failed to mention that the GENESIS was having its ass kicked by a dead vehicle from Pontiac going by the name "G8?"

Did he mention that the Chevrolet Equinox sales were up 78 percent compared with July 2008? The Hyundai Tucson and Sante Fe combined sold less.

I may be a GM Fan boy... but many of the defenders of others are simply .

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by vee8

I agree with all you said here. I'm not trying to beat up the guy. He just seems a lot brighter than the typical fan boy.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Generally speaking, I agree that the CSB is underappreciated by some. But GM cant really do much to change the perception of these engines. They have more important things to do than go on a PR campaign for the small block. I supposed they could advertise that the 430 hp Corvette (manual) gets better highway fuel economy than a V6 Accord coupe (manual).

Weight, I thought the LSA weighs more than that. I think the LS9 is 530 lbs and I doubt the LSA is a full 40 lbs less.

It may boil down to the Supercharger. The LS9's is a dual type Intercooler of course changing the size. (2.3 L vs 1.9 L)

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

Other than Chevrolets, I have owned only Pontiacs and Saturns...Right now I have..
1982 Chevy El Camino Super Sport
2000 Pontiac Sunfire GT Convertible
2007 Chevy HHR LT
and a 2008 Saturn Sky.

So unless I buy another used car (Saturn or Pontiac) I will only be buying new Chevrolets.....

So U seemingly see the illogical view that there was any real difference in say... a Pontiac and a Chevy besides styling?

[AngryAmish]