[hotlap]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

The way that outfit is being run, they will be making just boring Electric cars along with kitchen toasters.

There must be a lot of customers in Mexico and China looking to buy appliances from GM.

[cellsafemode]

Electric doesn't make cars boring or slow. Car makers make boring and slow cars.

A changing public view and poor car making business models makes niche cars a dying breed. Not how you decide to power them.

Cars are going to all go electric (it makes too much sense in too many areas for it not to). But that's not what will kill car enthusiasts..

The public sees driving as a necessary evil ...not as a fun recreation. They suck at doing it and way too many people need to do it, so automation will be pushed until it replaces human driving and at that point people will have already stopped owning personal vehicles and simply rent them as needed via ride hailing type services.

Cars cost too much and housing costs too much and income isn't rising to outpace those things so it just makes too much sense from a financial point of view and a public safety point of view for car driving to become just like flying in planes (only much more accessible). Nobody is going to care at all what brand of car they are in, nor it's attributes so long as it's safe, big enough to fit whatever the need is and comfortable. Nobody will learn how to drive except rich people who can afford their own private toys and pros.

That being said, The camaro has had crap numbers for a long long time. I blame chevy in splitting the high performance car niche into two with the corvette. Ford doesn't do that crap. It's all mustang from the most expensive down to the 4 banger. There isn't room in chevy's market for the camaro and the corvette and there hasn't been for 20+ years. They dont want to sully the brand of corvette by making it the only lineup, and can't elevate the camaro brand under the shadow of the corvette. So the camaro will die, and ford and dodge will eat that tiny bit of market and chevy will let them because they'll always have rich old people to buy vettes with a huge profit margin.

[cooldawg]

Well, I think they must’ve recruited from the toaster division of GM to design the wheels for C8. Granted, the car has a nice look, but those wheels seem narrow and really ordinary.

[hotlap]

Saw this article in the latest Motor Trend and it pretty much sums up what I feel many pointing to in this thread.

GM is inept and so willing to settle or surrender. I remember the old GM.

General Motors: The Incredible Shrinking Automaker - The Big Picture
Angus MacKenzie - Mar 12, 2020

Daimler may have invented the automobile, and Ford may have invented the automobile factory, but General Motors invented the modern automobile company. When GM was founded in 1908, there were 253 automakers in the United States, all with entrepreneurs and engineers, dollar-men and dreamers, vying to make their fortunes with a technology that was going to change the world.

Henry Ford was the Bill Gates of the era, quick to grasp the potential of democratizing automobility. But GM's Alfred Sloan was in many ways its Steve Jobs, intuitively understanding that adding form to function made the automobile more than mere transport, that it could transform need into desire.

GM not only pioneered the automotive design studio. It pioneered the electric self-starter and automatic transmission, two innovations that helped make the automobile even more accessible. It did the fundamental scientific research that led to the development of the catalytic converter and the airbag. It was experimenting with electric vehicles and autonomous drive systems before Elon Musk was born. It helped design and engineer the only car to have ever driven on the moon.

For almost 80 years, GM bestrode the automotive landscape like a colossus, making and selling more cars than any other automaker in the world. It held the top spot on the Fortune 500 list for more than three decades. When GM CEO Charles "Engine Charlie" Wilson said in 1953 that he thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors—and, more famously, vice versa—it was simply accepted as fact.
No more.

GM crashed into bankruptcy on June 1, 2009, the global financial crisis dealing a mortal blow to a company weakened by years of institutionalized arrogance and inept leadership. It survived, thanks to an injection of billions of dollars from the federal government that at one stage saw some 60 percent of the company owned by the U.S. taxpayer. And although GM paid back every cent it was obligated to pay to the Treasury, it has never really recovered. In the decade since, the company that was once the very definition of the power and strength and wealth of American capitalism has become the incredible shrinking automaker.

Last year GM sold 7.7 million vehicles worldwide, less than the 8.4 million retailed in the recession-recovery year of 2010, and well down from the 10 million it sold in 2016. It is now merely the world's fourth-largest automaker in terms of sales, well behind Volkswagen Group, Toyota, and the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi alliance. Part of that is because GM lost Opel's sales contribution when that company was sold to PSA Group in 2017, but there are deeper issues.

GM's net revenues are little changed from a decade ago—$137.2 billion versus $135.6 billion—though, to be fair, the lengthy UAW strike last year is estimated to have cost the company $2.6 billion. Net income has improved over the decade, up from $5.6 billion in 2010 to $6.6 billion now. But it's less than half the 2016 result, when GM's global sales were 30 percent higher.

The recent announcement that GM is to shut down its Australian design, engineering, and sales operations in 2021—and retire the iconic Holden brand—continues the string of cutbacks, closures, and asset disposals over the past 10 years.

GM bean counters can no doubt give chapter and verse on why all this shrinkage makes good business sense; the fact the company lost $20 billion over 20 years in Europe, for example, suggests it was time to quit. (Yet PSA's Carlos Tavares managed to get the business to turn a profit a year after he took the helm, so you have to wonder what the problem really was.)

But ponder this: Of the 7.7 million vehicles GM made last year, almost 84 percent were sold in North America and China. Once automaker to the world, GM is now almost entirely dependent on just two markets. And even in its home market, GM is slipping: In booming 2004, GM's U.S. market share was 26 percent. Fifteen years later, it barely scrapes 18.

GM largely has itself to blame, of course. But it's still sad to see the easy confidence and vaulting ambition that enabled Harley Earl's rocket-age styling, Ed Cole's small-block V-8, Zora Arkus-Duntov's Corvette, and a thousand other exciting products and innovations that transformed the automotive age, is no more.

[Zack46]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

That being said, The camaro has had crap numbers for a long long time. I blame chevy in splitting the high performance car niche into two with the corvette. Ford doesn't do that crap. It's all mustang from the most expensive down to the 4 banger. There isn't room in chevy's market for the camaro and the corvette and there hasn't been for 20+ years. They dont want to sully the brand of corvette by making it the only lineup, and can't elevate the camaro brand under the shadow of the corvette. So the camaro will die, and ford and dodge will eat that tiny bit of market and chevy will let them because they'll always have rich old people to buy vettes with a huge profit margin.

I couldn't disagree with you more....There is a place for the camaro and the corvette...Not everyone can afford a C8...But most can afford a camaro. Always has been that way. Look at the Dodge challenger, the design has not changed in 10 (ten) years. And it still outsells the camaro. GM, screwed up. The 5th gen came out and had a WOW factor. And they were out selling the mustang. Because customers loved the design of the 5th gen. GM, could've just stayed with the 5th gen for 10 years like what dodge did. I almost guarantee that the camaro would be on top if GM had not kept making tweeks and re-design changes every 2-3 years. It just boggles my mind they did this!!.......In my camaro club i belong to, there are 4 times as more 5th gen camaros than 6th gen camaros...

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Saw this article in the latest Motor Trend and it pretty much sums up what I feel many pointing to in this thread.

GM is inept and so willing to settle or surrender. I remember the old GM.

GM, needs real leadership from the top down. They have none. They are too damn PC now. At least when Whitaker was running it before the market crash GM was slowly coming back.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

GM, needs real leadership from the top down. They have none. They are too damn PC now. At least when Whitaker was running it before the market crash GM was slowly coming back.

In 10 months? Not quite

https://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz.../#51e8535c5b70

[AZCamaroFan]

i remember the old gm too

they lost a lot of money.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

i remember the old gm too

they lost a lot of money.

further ...before “institutionalized arrogance and inept leadership”.

[cooldawg]

Originally Posted by Zack46

I couldn't disagree with you more....There is a place for the camaro and the corvette...Not everyone can afford a C8...But most can afford a camaro. Always has been that way. Look at the Dodge challenger, the design has not changed in 10 (ten) years. And it still outsells the camaro. GM, screwed up. The 5th gen came out and had a WOW factor. And they were out selling the mustang. Because customers loved the design of the 5th gen. GM, could've just stayed with the 5th gen for 10 years like what dodge did. I almost guarantee that the camaro would be on top if GM had not kept making tweeks and re-design changes every 2-3 years. It just boggles my mind they did this!!.......In my camaro club i belong to, there are 4 times as more 5th gen camaros than 6th gen camaros...

I agree for the most part- especially with regard to corvette. There should be plenty of room for Camaro and Corvette; especially since C8 is now ME. Similar to challenger, they should make the Camaro large enough that the back seats are actually functional. That was the whole idea behind Camaro anyway- provide the guy/ gal with a family something fun to drive.

I love the lines on ZL1. Seems like they could grow it a bit and still maintain those design features for the most part, but the track guys wouldn’t like surrendering to the vette, I’m sure, lol.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by hotlap

further ...before “institutionalized arrogance and inept leadership”.

Attachment 1027169

in other words about 35 years

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by cooldawg

I agree for the most part- especially with regard to corvette. There should be plenty of room for Camaro and Corvette; especially since C8 is now ME. Similar to challenger, they should make the Camaro large enough that the back seats are actually functional. That was the whole idea behind Camaro anyway- provide the guy/ gal with a family something fun to drive.

I love the lines on ZL1. Seems like they could grow it a bit and still maintain those design features for the most part, but the track guys wouldn’t like surrendering to the vette, I’m sure, lol.

The Camaro is a Pony car and was never designed to be a "family" car hauling mom, dad, two kids and the dog to the lake for a weekend getaway.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

in other words about 35 years

I’m old enough to remember when GM had distinctive, aspirational brands that did stir desire. The first big purge began in 1980. I’m as blown away by GMs current direction as I was 35 years ago when that man turned every car into a POS.

[cooldawg]

Originally Posted by LESS1

The Camaro is a Pony car and was never designed to be a "family" car hauling mom, dad, two kids and the dog to the lake for a weekend getaway.

True, it was a pony car, but was also marketed at some level as a corvette with back seats.

The back seats on the present version aren’t usable. I still like it- I’m still considering buying one if I can snag the right price. Just figure it might be a way to create another niche to compete with challenger instead of Ford Mustang. The corvette would then be the GM track car.

Won’t happen anyway so just having a little fun. It’s plainly obvious at this point that Chevy is pretty much done with the Camaro.