[vangaurdtrooper]

All, I need some advise on brakes:


I have recently started to get more and more involved with HPDEs and Time Trials in the New England Area and needed some advice on some brake issues and hitting a spat of bad luck.


A little background:


In May of this year I started to slowly upgrading certain parts of the vehicle.

I have a 16 Camaro 2SS with following upgrades:
AFE Stage 1 suspension Kit (front and rear sway bars + springs)
19 inch Arch wheels with Bridgestone Re71R
Chevy Cold Air Intake
Stoptech slotted rotors
HAWK HPS pads
bf goodrich steel brake line

I went to 2 track events (1 HPDE + Time Trial, and 1 HPDE) and after my second event i was driving home and heard something broken underneath the car. I had to cancel my second time trial. When I took the vehicle in for a check it turned out to be a broken sway bar bushing. I also discovered an oil leak. I had both items checked out and taken care of under warranty. After taking it home, a day later i discovered a nail in my front left tire which i just had patched and sealed. I discovered one of the clip/brackets for brake line had popped of, took care of that. I also had transmission, differential and brake fluids flushed.

I am scheduled for another track day this weekend, but I may be in need of new brakes an/or rotors. I have about 5mm - 6mm left on the pads but I am getting some pretty heavy feeling from the car under braking. I dont know if this is what is referred to as "shuddering". I'm not getting vibration from the steering wheel or brakes when I applied, but it feels different from before the track day. Brakes seems to be very loud (not squeeking). I am actually having trouble describing it. I just did a flush with DOT4 in.

Firestone Autocare tells me my rotors are warped but I am doubting their analysis. I just purchased a new set of track dedicated Hawk pads (HP PLUS SPORT PADS - ENHANCED COMPOUND) and probably cannot get new rotors in time for the track day.

Questions:


1. I have an extra set of new OEM rotors, can i use them in combination with the track pad i just bought?

2. Do you all recommend that I switch out my current pads for the track pads i purchased, and switch them back once i am done with the track season (this will likely be my last session until next year)? Can i switch them back and forth?

3. Is it possible to make through one track day and continued street driving on 5mm of pad depth and perhaps have these pads last until next year? (i street drive about 10k per year and barely drive in the winter. I will be at Palmer and there are some good heavy brake zones and im starting to really learn to get on the brakes)

4. If the rotors are in-fact warped, can i still use them at the track? what are the negative consequences? worst case scenario?

5. Is it possible that i need to simply re-season the brakes and see if it is just accumulation of contaminants on the brake surfaces that is causing the issue? (I'd like to try this but just haven't driven the car enough to do anything with it lately).

6. I've read and heard from many track day folks that the a tire plug and seal is perfectly fine and that many have used tires that were previously sealed and plugged. The nail was about 4-5 inches away from the side wall on the front left tire. Should I be concerned? These are super sticky RE71R 285-35-19s.


7. As I've attended more and more events, I am starting to see the deep black hole of costs this all takes and i keep telling myself it is worth it. Time to quit or go full steam ahead?

Thank you in advance for any help you all may offer.

[Jimbeau11]

I doubt your rotors are warped. If you have a place you can safely get up to speed and brake aggressively a few times or you could go through the full bedding process, that will normally fix the issue.

Normally 5mm (which I believes is about 50%) would be plenty of pad for a day and should pass tech inspection. You didn't say if it was a normal 4-5 20min session day or open track. That could matter.

Also the HPS pads are pretty soft, wear quickly and don't handle heat all that well. They're better for autocross than HPDE. If you're going to do this regularly I would recommend moving to a racing compound like Hawk's DTC-60 or something equivalent from Carbotech or Cobalt.

I leave my DTC70 racing pads on year round. I like them better and the newer pad compounds don't need to get hot to stop effectively.

You didn't mention which DOT4, if it's not SRF I would recommend you switch at your next flush. Motul RBF is also good.

I personally would not run a plugged tire on the track. The belts have been punctured and the structural integrity of the tire has been compromised. Plus you're working them hard and putting a lot of heat and pressure in them. What if the repair fails catastrophically? I've seen a blowout on the back strait at VIR at 140+ mph. Not worth taking the chance to save a few bucks.

Been doing this for 15 years. Yes it is a black hole, and yes it is worth it!! Who wants to retire anyway??

[TrackClub]

As mentioned above, HPS is defo NOT a track pad.
Having said that, i differ as to the torque values of pads regrding track use. IMO they dont have to be high torque to be track/race worthy. They just have to do the job and last a reasonable time frame.
HPS may not last you a *single* track day once you get faster. Personally I prefer durable, track worthy pads but of less and flatter torque as they generate less heat (think friendly to rotors, calipers, wheel hubs and tires) and are easier to trail brake with. But every driver has their preference, so you may need to experiment a bit and pick what your style matches best. Last thing you want is brakes that feel like on/off switch with little modulation capability - as much pace is to be gained by trailing brakes deep into a corner to assist with rotation of the car. To this end, many pros select relatively low torque pads. But again, personal preference is a deciding factor. In either case, the compound has to withstand the heat and last for several days of track duty. HPS is not the answer for SURE. Cheers!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by vangaurdtrooper

I just purchased a new set of track dedicated Hawk pads (HP PLUS SPORT PADS - ENHANCED COMPOUND)

Based on Hawk's mu vs temperature curves, I think you'll outgrow Hawk's HP+ Enhanced pads before too long.

For now, if you're planning on leaving the Enhanced pads on the car for street duty, you're at least in better shape from the standpoint of rotor wear than you'd have been with original HP+ pads. The original HP+ formulation had a HUGE appetite for iron in street driving.

Originally Posted by Tire Rack on HP+ Enhanced Compound

The HP Plus (Enhanced Compound) displays lower pad wear and noticeably improved rotor wear over the previous HP Plus (Original Compound)

FWIW, Carbotech and G-loc offer track-capable compounds with about the same mu as HP+ that combine higher temperature capability than HP+ with rotor wear characteristics about like HPS (a true street pad) even in low-brake-temperature street driving.


Norm

[vangaurdtrooper]

Originally Posted by Jimbeau11

I doubt your rotors are warped. If you have a place you can safely get up to speed and brake aggressively a few times or you could go through the full bedding process, that will normally fix the issue.

Normally 5mm (which I believes is about 50%) would be plenty of pad for a day and should pass tech inspection. You didn't say if it was a normal 4-5 20min session day or open track. That could matter.

Also the HPS pads are pretty soft, wear quickly and don't handle heat all that well. They're better for autocross than HPDE. If you're going to do this regularly I would recommend moving to a racing compound like Hawk's DTC-60 or something equivalent from Carbotech or Cobalt.

I leave my DTC70 racing pads on year round. I like them better and the newer pad compounds don't need to get hot to stop effectively.

You didn't mention which DOT4, if it's not SRF I would recommend you switch at your next flush. Motul RBF is also good.

I personally would not run a plugged tire on the track. The belts have been punctured and the structural integrity of the tire has been compromised. Plus you're working them hard and putting a lot of heat and pressure in them. What if the repair fails catastrophically? I've seen a blowout on the back strait at VIR at 140+ mph. Not worth taking the chance to save a few bucks.

Been doing this for 15 years. Yes it is a black hole, and yes it is worth it!! Who wants to retire anyway??

Thanks for the pointers all. I went through the full brake bedding process and braking seems fine now.

Going forward:

I will run these current HAWK-HPS at the track and on the street until i need to switch out. (I wish i knew about the HPS disadvantages before this, fail on my part) I will then switch between stoptech street pads for street and HPS enhanced compound on track days. Or should i just return the HPS enhanced compound and go DTC-70 pad (or Carbotech and G-loc)?

Will a DTC-70 pad (or Carbotech and G-loc) last as long as any oem pad if also being used for street? How much does rotor quality/brand matter? Can i stick a DTC-70 on an oem rotor?

Do you consider longevity and life when purchasing these disposables? Initially i just wanted the fastest parts, but now knowing how quickly i can run through one set of pads, i want something that will last at least a whole track season (or two), at the cost of maybe a bit of performance.

I also think i will switch back to a street tire for track days. these re71rs are almost too sticky, every pebble gets kicked up into the car and i can knock rocks out of the undercarriage for days. I run firestone firehawk on my oem set of wheels and although they dont take corners as well, they do last quite long even through track days.

[Jimbeau11]

I don't know that you want to go all the way to DTC70s. They are hard on rotors. Longevity really depends on how many events you do and your driving style. My DTC70 held up for the equivalent of about 10 days of 4-5 20min sessions.

I have 7k miles on my car since Oct and have been driving with racing pads on since my first event in May. I commute 50 miles one way, and most of it is interstate so other than the occasional panic stop from 80mph I'm not on the brakes that much. I don't feel like you use enough pad in normal driving to make it worth switching.

In the old days racing pads screeched loudly and didn't stop very well if they were cold, so you almost had to switch back to a street compound pad for safety. That's not really a problem with the DTC pads from Hawk and likely with other manufacturers as well, but I only use Hawk.

I'm currently using the stock rotors, and they're holding up surprisingly well. The rotors have been through about 14 track days and are still good with only minor heat checking at this point. I do carry a spare set of DBA front friction rings and AC Delco rears to every track event because eventually one of them is going to crack. I always carry a new set of pads as well.

[kropscamaro16]

i have stock rotors phastek lines motul 660 fluid and powerstop track day pads and for my driving style on track and auto x they are fine but yea most of the hawks are garage if i did it all over again i would have just gotten another set of the stock brembo/gm pads they are actually pretty good on the street/track at least for a beginner/intermediate driver!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by vangaurdtrooper

Thanks for the pointers all. I went through the full brake bedding process and braking seems fine now.

Going forward:

I will run these current HAWK-HPS at the track and on the street until i need to switch out. (I wish i knew about the HPS disadvantages before this, fail on my part) I will then switch between stoptech street pads for street and HPS enhanced compound on track days. Or should i just return the HPS enhanced compound and go DTC-70 pad (or Carbotech and G-loc)?

It's a bit risky to swap between different pad mfrs on the same rotors - different pad compounds may not be compatible with each other and you'll end up with "warped rotor syndrome" that's really about pad deposits.

Will a DTC-70 pad (or Carbotech and G-loc) last as long as any oem pad if also being used for street?

Keep in mind that for as long as you're tracking the car you'll have to pass a minimum percentage of the original friction material thickness guideline. Typically this is 50%.

I suppose if the pads are easy enough to change and you have a relatively long "off-season" that you could re-install pads that have more than street minimum thickness but less than track minimum for that duration. And then use those until they're down to street minimum.

I don't bother swapping pads either. The lower track formulations in CT or G-loc - either 8's or 10's - are decent in street duty as long as you don't mind some dust and occasional squealing (mostly during gentle slowing/stopping). First stop on a winter morning might be a little soft.

How much does rotor quality/brand matter? Can i stick a DTC-70 on an oem rotor?

Can't think of any reason you couldn't. Though if it's been used with OE pads, you'll want to sand off any deposits first.

Do you consider longevity and life when purchasing these disposables?

Only if I discovered through trial that shorter-lived components brought no benefits that I could notice. Ultimate longevity means nothing on the last 1g braking event on the last lap of the last session of the day when all you've got mental room to care about is that they'll get the job of slowing you down done without any drama.

Initially i just wanted the fastest parts, but now knowing how quickly i can run through one set of pads, i want something that will last at least a whole track season (or two), at the cost of maybe a bit of performance.

HPS longevity in a track day environment probably isn't a good basis for predicting how long track-capable pads will last. That said, I don't expect to get more than 5 or 6 days from a front set of XP10's, or more than 8 or 10 from XP10's out back. Your experience could vary quite a bit from that.

How many days is a whole track season for you?

I also think i will switch back to a street tire for track days. these re71rs are almost too sticky, every pebble gets kicked up into the car and i can knock rocks out of the undercarriage for days. I run firestone firehawk on my oem set of wheels and although they dont take corners as well, they do last quite long even through track days.

No reason you can't keep tracking on "true" street tires at least up to intermediate level (even beyond). I'll be on MPSS until I wear them out, after which I might only step up to the newer PS4S. Having good wet-weather capability can be important (rainy track days can be fun if you've got the discipline to drive within the conditions . . . and traffic on a wet track tends to be lighter than normal).


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by kropscamaro16

i have stock rotors phastek lines motul 660 fluid and powerstop track day pads and for my driving style on track and auto x they are fine but yea most of the hawks are garage if i did it all over again i would have just gotten another set of the stock brembo/gm pads they are actually pretty good on the street/track at least for a beginner/intermediate driver!

Agree! The stock combo is superbly capable way past the intermediate level and personally i like it a lot.

OP: if i may suggest....do NOT stick the top dog racing pads like DTC70 on your car. Firstly, they will hamper your learning process (imo), secondly you will deal with much more heat from (any) high torque pad, which will affect longevity of not only the rotors but also calipers.