Cars that need a small block

[mikeyg36]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I guess that depends on what the LF3 is rated at off the shelf. If its a 400 hp engine out of the box, I don't have issue with it being in an ATS-V as is. More would be better, but 400 hp @ 3600lbs is a pretty good combo. If its 350 ... not so much

400 would be a bit low. Outgoing M3 make 414 HP, C63 AMG makes 450-480 depending on the package, and the RS5 has 450. I really think it needs the LT1 or a really beefed up LF3 to compete.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by mikeyg36

400 would be a bit low. Outgoing M3 make 414 HP, C63 AMG makes 450-480 depending on the package, and the RS5 has 450. I really think it needs the LT1 or a really beefed up LF3 to compete.

The RS5 and C63 are both roughly 4000 lbs though. That weight difference would essentially offset the power advantage those cars have. The soon to be replaced V8 M3 makes substantially less torque than a 400 hp LF3 would, I'd estimate 100 ft-lbs or so. That translates to the ATS-V having a substantial advantage in low end & midrange power. But its being replaced with a turbo6, probably before the ATS-V comes out.

Anyway, as I said 400 would do the trick. More would be better (as is always the case), but its not like it would be severely hampered if it 'only' made 400 or so. Go much below that, to 375 or 350 & yeah, it won't be enough to compete.

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The RS5 and C63 are both roughly 4000 lbs though. That weight difference would essentially offset the power advantage those cars have. The soon to be replaced V8 M3 makes substantially less torque than a 400 hp LF3 would, I'd estimate 100 ft-lbs or so. That translates to the ATS-V having a substantial advantage in low end & midrange power. But its being replaced with a turbo6, probably before the ATS-V comes out.

Anyway, as I said 400 would do the trick. More would be better (as is always the case), but its not like it would be severely hampered if it 'only' made 400 or so. Go much below that, to 375 or 350 & yeah, it won't be enough to compete.

I feel like this complacency attitude is what occasionally ends up hurting GM - quit competing with last years model and just go for the glory. If you end up with an absolute monster no one will complain, but if you come up short or equal you just get lost in the crowd.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

I feel like this complacency attitude is what occasionally ends up hurting GM - quit competing with last years model and just go for the glory. If you end up with an absolute monster no one will complain, but if you come up short or equal you just get lost in the crowd.

Plenty of people will complain if it costs too much & gets atrocious fuel economy. And that would most definitely happen if they go to make it into a 500+ hp absolute monster. In fact, I'd say that more will complain about it costing too much than there would be if it comes in a little under the competition & offers the same straight line performance, coupled with superior driving dynamics.

Likewise, while I haven't followed the luxury sports sedan segment very closely, I don't seem to recall many of them being considered great because of their astonishing straight line speed. After all, these aren't muscle cars. They're luxury sedans.

Sure, your neighbour might be able to brag that he's got a better motor. But you can come right back by saying you've got the better car. Personally, I'd rather GM focus on making the better car rather than the better motor.

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Plenty of people will complain if it costs too much & gets atrocious fuel economy. And that would most definitely happen if they go to make it into a 500+ hp absolute monster. In fact, I'd say that more will complain about it costing too much than there would be if it comes in a little under the competition & offers the same straight line performance, coupled with superior driving dynamics.

Likewise, while I haven't followed the luxury sports sedan segment very closely, I don't seem to recall many of them being considered great because of their astonishing straight line speed. After all, these aren't muscle cars. They're luxury sedans.

Sure, your neighbour might be able to brag that he's got a better motor. But you can come right back by saying you've got the better car. Personally, I'd rather GM focus on making the better car rather than the better motor.

Complaining about fuel economy for the V series...not likely. I'm not talking about throwing a Gen 5 LSA - I'm just talking about building the motor so there is room to grow so even if it is just a matter of a few more pounds of boost it can be done for the performance models. I guarantee you a tri-turbo (as ridiculous as that sounds) will make more than 425 hp from a certain competitor.

[mikeyg36]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Plenty of people will complain if it costs too much & gets atrocious fuel economy. And that would most definitely happen if they go to make it into a 500+ hp absolute monster. In fact, I'd say that more will complain about it costing too much than there would be if it comes in a little under the competition & offers the same straight line performance, coupled with superior driving dynamics.

Likewise, while I haven't followed the luxury sports sedan segment very closely, I don't seem to recall many of them being considered great because of their astonishing straight line speed. After all, these aren't muscle cars. They're luxury sedans.

Sure, your neighbour might be able to brag that he's got a better motor. But you can come right back by saying you've got the better car. Personally, I'd rather GM focus on making the better car rather than the better motor.

The LT1 would be perfect then. It is already a great motor, it doesn't have a gas guzzler tax, and it will smoke the competition in a straight line. Combine it with the MRC and the alpha chassis, and you have a fantastic car.

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

Complaining about fuel economy for the V series...not likely. I'm not talking about throwing a Gen 5 LSA - I'm just talking about building the motor so there is room to grow so even if it is just a matter of a few more pounds of boost it can be done for the performance models. I guarantee you a tri-turbo (as ridiculous as that sounds) will make more than 425 hp from a certain competitor.

I'm pretty sure that BMW said it will not be a tri turbo... If it is, then the ATS-V will need a tri turbo LT1

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by mikeyg36

The LT1 would be perfect then. It is already a great motor, it doesn't have a gas guzzler tax, and it will smoke the competition in a straight line. Combine it with the MRC and the alpha chassis, and you have a fantastic car.


I'm pretty sure that BMW said it will not be a tri turbo... If it is, then the ATS-V will need a tri turbo LT1

Also, it's not like the LT1 would add considerable weight over a TTV6. I just feel like some of these explanations that I am getting in this thread are from the perspective of a bean counter more than an enthusiast. They will have their say - there is no need for that sort of stuff to be parroted to us. Once again, I feel like a successful business plan would be a cut throat attitude not "well it should have enough to compete"

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by mikeyg36

Whatever engine it has, it better destroy the M3. I hate that car with a passion

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

Also, it's not like the LT1 would add considerable weight over a TTV6. I just feel like some of these explanations that I am getting in this thread are from the perspective of a bean counter more than an enthusiast. They will have their say - there is no need for that sort of stuff to be parroted to us. Once again, I feel like a successful business plan would be a cut throat attitude not "well it should have enough to compete"

I think what your getting is reality.

Yep, you can shoe horn a small block into anything. Remember the Mallet Solstice conversion?

And yes, the RS5 has a V8 and that car, like the ATS is simply a RWD Cruze in size.

But any V8 will be a packaging challenge in a car that size. The Audi has a 4.2 L V8, not a 6.2 L.

Tip of the hat to AMG getting their 6.3 L in a C-Class. But I believe that is a RWD only model.
Right now you can't get the RS4 here :( . And it's also a $70,000 car.

So can or will GM cram an LT1 into an ATS? Could fit. Fits under the hood of the C7.

But I think if you put a 450/450 engine and the transmission and axle needed to accomodate that torque you will be very nearly at CTS-V weight and performance. So then it simply becomes two awesome cars at the same price point and you just pick what size you want.

There has to be a difference between an ATS-V if one ever exists and a CTS-V. And hopefully GM has that worked out somehow.

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I think what your getting is reality.

Yep, you can shoe horn a small block into anything. Remember the Mallet Solstice conversion?

And yes, the RS5 has a V8 and that car, like the ATS is simply a RWD Cruze in size.

But any V8 will be a packaging challenge in a car that size. The Audi has a 4.2 L V8, not a 6.2 L.

Tip of the hat to AMG getting their 6.3 L in a C-Class. But I believe that is a RWD only model.
Right now you can't get the RS4 here :( . And it's also a $70,000 car.

So can or will GM cram an LT1 into an ATS? Could fit. Fits under the hood of the C7.

But I think if you put a 450/450 engine and the transmission and axle needed to accomodate that torque you will be very nearly at CTS-V weight and performance. So then it simply becomes two awesome cars at the same price point and you just pick what size you want.

There has to be a difference between an ATS-V if one ever exists and a CTS-V. And hopefully GM has that worked out somehow.

The LT1 is the base model V8 of the 5th generation small block - I don't think I am being irrational in thinking it would be a doable engine for the ATS-V. Mind you, if my post made it sound like V8 or nothing then my tone was off - I'd love to have a TTV6, but I hope it is overbuilt.

[mikeyg36]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I think what your getting is reality.

Yep, you can shoe horn a small block into anything. Remember the Mallet Solstice conversion?

And yes, the RS5 has a V8 and that car, like the ATS is simply a RWD Cruze in size.

But any V8 will be a packaging challenge in a car that size. The Audi has a 4.2 L V8, not a 6.2 L.

Tip of the hat to AMG getting their 6.3 L in a C-Class. But I believe that is a RWD only model.
Right now you can't get the RS4 here :( . And it's also a $70,000 car.

So can or will GM cram an LT1 into an ATS? Could fit. Fits under the hood of the C7.

But I think if you put a 450/450 engine and the transmission and axle needed to accomodate that torque you will be very nearly at CTS-V weight and performance. So then it simply becomes two awesome cars at the same price point and you just pick what size you want.

There has to be a difference between an ATS-V if one ever exists and a CTS-V. And hopefully GM has that worked out somehow.

Displacement is cylinder volume, not engine dimensions. LT1 is a pushrod engine, the RS5 has a DOHC. The Audi is probably bigger in dimensions despite the much smaller displacement.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I said the LT1 would fit, but back then engineers were still deciding on LT1 vs LF3. Seems like LF3's the predominant rumor now.

All rumors. Technically there isn't a such thing as an ATS-V.

You are lucky that I am a) a friend and b) lazy. Otherwise, I'm sure I could find something that says you think that maybe the ATS-V could probably have a chance of possibly having a V8 instead of a V6 turbo. Either here or on GMI.

But like I said, you are a friend and I'm kinda lazy.

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

Complaining about fuel economy for the V series...not likely. I'm not talking about throwing a Gen 5 LSA - I'm just talking about building the motor so there is room to grow so even if it is just a matter of a few more pounds of boost it can be done for the performance models. I guarantee you a tri-turbo (as ridiculous as that sounds) will make more than 425 hp from a certain competitor.

Adding a few pounds of boost on a lower performance engine adds cost. Lots of it. Simply turning the dial to 11 (or, perhaps 8 if you are feeling conservative) is a lot easier for us on the interwebs than it is for the boffins at GM working in R&D.

Do we need to lower the compression, are the pistons capable of handing the excess pressure, how do we re-map the injection, what cats do we need to order, what is the cylinder temp, cylinder pressure, how does it affect emissions, etc. Upping the boost is easy for people once the car is built. But for GM? Ugh, I'd rather not think about it.

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

Also, it's not like the LT1 would add considerable weight over a TTV6. I just feel like some of these explanations that I am getting in this thread are from the perspective of a bean counter more than an enthusiast. They will have their say - there is no need for that sort of stuff to be parroted to us. Once again, I feel like a successful business plan would be a cut throat attitude not "well it should have enough to compete"

It might not add considerable weight. But it would add considerable complexity, which does add weight. Now you have to make an engine bay accommodate 3 different configs of engine: I4, V6 and V8. Its far easier to reinforce a V6 mount than it is to make an all new V8 mount (which would be needed since the ecotecs, I assume, don't have a 4.4" bore centreline) and therefore don't have such associated mounting points).

Originally Posted by Number 3

I think what your getting is reality.

Yep, you can shoe horn a small block into anything. Remember the Mallet Solstice conversion?

Reminds me of a joke I once heard, which involved a mentally handicaped individual with a 'male enhancement' pill, and a redneck with a small block.

The punch line was that they'd both stick it into anything.

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

The LT1 is the base model V8 of the 5th generation small block - I don't think I am being irrational in thinking it would be a doable engine for the ATS-V. Mind you, if my post made it sound like V8 or nothing then my tone was off - I'd love to have a TTV6, but I hope it is overbuilt.

If it exists, it will almost certainly be an EcoBoast competitor. Which means it won't be overbuilt and would be in the 350 to 400 hp range. Maybe they'll surprise us with a 450 hp variant but I'd be doubting it.

Originally Posted by mikeyg36

Displacement is cylinder volume, not engine dimensions. LT1 is a pushrod engine, the RS5 has a DOHC. The Audi is probably bigger in dimensions despite the much smaller displacement.

#3 knows that ... he used to work for GM, possibly in powertrain (though I'm not sure on that one). He is most definitely an automotive engineer that has forgotten more about that subject than most of us on Camaro5 will ever know.