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LT1 (6.2L V8) Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions Topics related to the LT1 engine.

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Old 02-14-2013, 12:22 PM   #1
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Lingenfelter: New LT1 Engine a Challenge for Tuners

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General Motors’ powertrain engineers have undoubtedly demonstrated with the LS family of V8 engines that pushrods still have a place in the 21st century. As successful and popular as the LS has been, I don’t think it’s much of stretch to assume that the new LT1 V8 in the all new seventh generation Corvette will eventually replace the LS engine in its various permutations and applications. The LT1, still a cam in block engine, and still with Ed Cole’s 4.40 inch bore centers, adds direct injection to the Small Block Chevy heritage. The LS family has also been popular as crate motors, used by customizers and high performance enthusiasts as well as with a small industry of companies that specialize in high performance GM products. While you can buy a LS from General Motors with up to 638 horsepower, if that just doesn’t satisfy your need for speed, companies like Callaway, Lingenfelter and Hennessey have shown that the LS engine’s basic architecture is capable of putting out almost twice that power. After talking with Ken Lingenfelter about the new Corvette, I wonder, though, just how tuner-friendly the new LT1 will be.

I ran into Lingenfelter in front of the Classic Car Club of America’s display at the Chicago Auto Show. Ken’s a noted collector of Corvettes and other performance cars who took over Lingenfelter Performance Engineering when his cousin, John, who started LPE, was killed in a car wreck. Ken’s a car guy’s car guy and I see him at tons of car events around the Detroit area, as an exhibitor, as a vendor and as an attendee. A while back he graciously gave me access to shoot 3D photos and video of his collection. He was in Chicago to show some LPE massaged cars, including a very nicely done ’67ish StingRay body on a C6 Corvette chassis with Lingenfelter power, built by Karls Kustom Corvette .

When I asked Lingenfelter if LPE has had a chance to work on the LT1 yet, he told me that GM’s been rather close to the vest with the new engine. He also said since the LT1 is the first time that GM has used direct injection in their V8 engine family, there’s going to be a learning curve for the tuners. One thing he said, though, may not bode well for 1,000+ HP LTs. Lingenfelter said that engines are designed with performance limits. Think of the way that Formula One used to use “hand grenade” qualifying engines, motors built to make crazy power but not last longer than a few laps. According to Lingenfelter, the production versions of the LS engine still leave a lot of room for performance improvement, they’re nowhere near the limits of the performance envelope. From what he’s learned about the new LT1, Lingenfelter fears that the motor, which has the highest specific output of any GM engine ever, 450 HP and 450 lb-ft of torque from 6.2 liters of displacement, may be closer to the limits of its performance envelope in production form than the LS. No doubt the LT1′s architecture can handle the 600 or 700 HP that the eventual ZR1 edition of the C7 will have, but 700 HP is commonplace in the LS tuning world and Lingenfelter is concerned that they may not be able to wring much more than that out of the new Corvette engine.
via http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ge-for-tuners/
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:30 PM   #2
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Well pee in my corn flakes.

Id be sastified with 550-600 in a car this light.

We will see.
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I wonder if this could be why my car idles like its retarded...
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:21 PM   #3
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How "tunable" is the BoschBox-equipped DI 3.6 V6, after how many years?

That's what's ahead for the Gen-5 SBC...
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:34 PM   #4
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Pure conjecture. People said the same thing about LS6, LS7. I'm sure people worried when Gen III debuted and then again when Gen IV and AFM came out. Remember when OBDII was the end of performance upgrades?
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:02 PM   #5
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LPE has tuned a "few" cars.

I wouldn't call it conjecture but foresight.

Just my opinion though.
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I wonder if this could be why my car idles like its retarded...
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:15 PM   #6
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I'll wait for testing and real world numbers. But honestly, for me? I'm sure the base version will be all the power I'll ever be able to use on the street and way more Never been much of a bench racer - if a GTR can hit 60 in 3.2 seconds versus my 3.9 seconds? Woohoo - damn, that's going to impress the chicks down at the Dairy Queen huh? :second:
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:47 AM   #7
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Well, hopefully when my car gets to Lingy, that have it all perfected.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:48 AM   #8
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I would tend to agree with LPE on this one. The compression ratio on the LT1 is 11 to 1, if the block can handle it it will have to be stroked in order to add boost.
For all the guys who think stock is more power than they will ever need.....really?
I have a LPE Camaro with 706 horses at the rear wheels....I still want more. Windy also has a LPE beast of a car. I guess if you want a cool daily driver its just fine. However if you want to be able cruise and kick butt on the track or strip....a visit to Lingenfelter is just what the doctor ordered.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
How "tunable" is the BoschBox-equipped DI 3.6 V6, after how many years?

That's what's ahead for the Gen-5 SBC...

While I agree the Bosch ECM will be difficult to get into and start tuning, with time and resources it will be fully open. The LLT's biggest draw back is it's a small market compared to the V8 world. Some people have decided to chase it which has brought the limited tuning that exists today, but if ever aftermarket company were chomping at the bit to get into it it would be a completely different story.


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Originally Posted by blaksabb View Post
Pure conjecture. People said the same thing about LS6, LS7. I'm sure people worried when Gen III debuted and then again when Gen IV and AFM came out. Remember when OBDII was the end of performance upgrades?
I agree completely. While it will be a struggle relearning everything with a new architecture AND programming strategy, it's not impossible.


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I would tend to agree with LPE on this one. The compression ratio on the LT1 is 11 to 1, if the block can handle it it will have to be stroked in order to add boost.
For all the guys who think stock is more power than they will ever need.....really?
I have a LPE Camaro with 706 horses at the rear wheels....I still want more. Windy also has a LPE beast of a car. I guess if you want a cool daily driver its just fine. However if you want to be able cruise and kick butt on the track or strip....a visit to Lingenfelter is just what the doctor ordered.
I don't agree with this. an LS2 is 10.9:1, ls3 is 10.8 or 10.7 depending on where you grab your info from. The new 5.0 coyote is 11:1 as well. All of these responed tremendously well to boost with little to no change in durability if tuned properly.

The biggest draw back will be the fuel system. Increasing output from a mechanical system is not going to be easy. There will be "easy" fixes that work once the limit is reached. Things like methanol injection would work to a degree while still being safe. My fear will be that someone will decide to "add" traditional injectors and a stand alone fuel system to fix any limitations. These technically work, but are notoriously inconsistent.

Again, given time, everything will work out just fine. The aftermarket will develop high output mechanical pumps, and larger injector nozzles. Also, GM is not going to weaken the engine compared to an LS series. They will concentrate on NVH improvements. Typically this means to add material either in quantity, or quality to an engine block, crank, and rods. By doing so, it makes it stronger. Note the crankshafts all use an 8-bolt design for the flywheel compared to a traditional (besides LSA and LS9) 6-bolt.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy@livernois View Post
The LLT's biggest draw back is it's a small market compared to the V8 world. Some people have decided to chase it which has brought the limited tuning that exists today, but if every aftermarket company were chomping at the bit to get into it, it would be a completely different story.
There's FAR more V6 Camaros, out there, than there are BOSS/Shelby/GT-R examples, yet the FACT remains myriad "attempts" and "promises" have come up short...be they n/a or boosted. From emporiums with stellar efforts on most other ECMs.

Getting into DI applications with their extremely high fuel pressures requires very precise calibrations, NOT "good enough" piggyback apps...and for those to be accomplished requires direct OEM/Tier "support".

Stay tuned...
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:52 PM   #11
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They will use this as an excuse to charge outrageous prices
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:24 AM   #12
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They will use this as an excuse to charge outrageous prices
I would like to say :nono:


But I'm sure it:sad:
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I wonder if this could be why my car idles like its retarded...
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:45 AM   #13
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I would like to say :nono:


But I'm sure it:sad:
I can see it now... $800 cold air intakes, because they were "specially designed" for direct injection.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:21 AM   #14
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I can see it now... $800 cold air intakes, because they were "specially designed" for direct injection.



So true
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I wonder if this could be why my car idles like its retarded...
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
There's FAR more V6 Camaros, out there, than there are BOSS/Shelby/GT-R examples, yet the FACT remains myriad "attempts" and "promises" have come up short...be they n/a or boosted. From emporiums with stellar efforts on most other ECMs.

Getting into DI applications with their extremely high fuel pressures requires very precise calibrations, NOT "good enough" piggyback apps...and for those to be accomplished requires direct OEM/Tier "support".

Stay tuned...
a "small market" does not mean "low volume car". It has nothing to do with the bosch processor why the LLT has very little support. Look at the history of the V6 pony cars, whether GM, Ford, or Chrysler the aftermarket have never fully embraced these cars. The 3.8 V6 ECM in the 4th Gen F-bodies had no issues being tuned, but still, very few people modified them.

For the comment on needing OEM/Tier 1 support for DI tuning, I agree. Luckily we fit in that requirement, so we will be able to ensure a proper calibration once the ECM is cracked. All of the 2011+ F150, and all other 2013+ Ecoboost Ford vehicles us a Bosch ECM that people said would be untunable, yet we were able to tune a 2013 SHO within a month of them being on the market, and had perfected our tune within 3 more weeks after that.
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:11 PM   #16
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I have to agree with Andy. There will be enough demand to tune the V8 that lots of people will crack the ECU. The issue is the mechanical High-pressure fuel pump. There are inherent limitations and if you aren't going to add port injection to get around them then you are probably looking at big bucks. I wish I had the $$$s to experiment with running a second pump on the other camshaft. That would provide enough fuel, but then you have to figure out how you don't over fuel at idle and low RPMs. It will be very interesting figureing it all out.
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Old 03-03-2013, 12:20 PM   #17
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Hennessey is already advertising 1000 HP turbo and 750 HP huffer packages.
Hello Lingy!!!!!
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:25 AM   #18
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LPE and Hennessey can advertise anything they want. But have they actually gotten their hands on a LT1? I doubt it.

And then there is the cost....if it cost $75,000, who will buy that? Not me.

Then if you read and talk to people about their experience with H*********, I definitely would not.

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Old 04-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #19
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part of what isn't be discussed here is the fact that if you go ahead and buy an "X" engined car from GM; and then go out and spend money at "Y" tuner shop...

you're not spending money at GM anymore.


it may seem like a bonkers idea to some of you guys who love ripping your brand new cars apart (and given the money you have to spend, no one can really judge you for it) but there is a business case for GM to engineer these new Gen 6 (is it 6?) v8's to be built to the near peak of their capability.

in engineering; everything is foreseeable to a certain degree...

so don't be surprised that once the ECM is figured out; blocks start blowing up (or other critical components) unless HEAVY modification ends up being done to the engine.

at that point/cost; you might as well just buy the hi-po version of that "X" engined car... you guessed: from GM.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy@Livernois View Post
a "small market" does not mean "low volume car". It has nothing to do with the bosch processor why the LLT has very little support. Look at the history of the V6 pony cars, whether GM, Ford, or Chrysler the aftermarket have never fully embraced these cars. The 3.8 V6 ECM in the 4th Gen F-bodies had no issues being tuned, but still, very few people modified them.

For the comment on needing OEM/Tier 1 support for DI tuning, I agree. Luckily we fit in that requirement, so we will be able to ensure a proper calibration once the ECM is cracked. All of the 2011+ F150, and all other 2013+ Ecoboost Ford vehicles us a Bosch ECM that people said would be untunable, yet we were able to tune a 2013 SHO within a month of them being on the market, and had perfected our tune within 3 more weeks after that.
I suggest you do more homework as the C7 uses the Siemans PCM from Europe, not Bosch and it has been used for 3 years over there and not one person has cracked it, nor how the PCM has to connect and exchange protocol client to server
It so bad that owners of performance cars in Europe are forced to change to different PCMs and remove engine functions that older PCMs were not designed for.

Add other functions are now in other controllers even if PCM was cracked they still would not be able to do proper tuning without touching other controllers.

Lots of hype on doing C7 mods when hackers have no clue on how GM designed all the coding for DOD, VVT, DI, or even rev matching so its a bet that IF PCM was hacked there will be lots of LT1s blown up as was seen when the E38 and E67s PCM were used in later C6s much less understanding either the E92 or E95 PCMs.

It would be foolish for anyone buying a C7 now hack the car up and GM yank all warranty as new PCM is sure to report via Onstar if PCM has been hacked.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:21 PM   #21
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I suggest you do more homework as the C7 uses the Siemans PCM from Europe, not Bosch and it has been used for 3 years over there and not one person has cracked it, nor how the PCM has to connect and exchange protocol client to server
It so bad that owners of performance cars in Europe are forced to change to different PCMs and remove engine functions that older PCMs were not designed for.

Add other functions are now in other controllers even if PCM was cracked they still would not be able to do proper tuning without touching other controllers.

Lots of hype on doing C7 mods when hackers have no clue on how GM designed all the coding for DOD, VVT, DI, or even rev matching so its a bet that IF PCM was hacked there will be lots of LT1s blown up as was seen when the E38 and E67s PCM were used in later C6s much less understanding either the E92 or E95 PCMs.

It would be foolish for anyone buying a C7 now hack the car up and GM yank all warranty as new PCM is sure to report via Onstar if PCM has been hacked.
thank you!


****ing finally, someone with some common sense.

side note; any links you can provide as to the use of said PCM?
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:50 PM   #22
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thank you!


****ing finally, someone with some common sense.

side note; any links you can provide as to the use of said PCM?
If you do an internet search for "E92 ECM" there is a ton of info out there from countless people trying to hack or backward engineer for E92 and failed

Here is one thread
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...7s-future.html

E92 is not new, has even been used on the Cobolt SS, Dodge, BMW, etc

I know 3 vendors who make tuning tools and they all had to give up as the software is too complex.

It has to with the VVT, DI and DOD.

Other then that look at the early years of C4,C5,C6 and the first 2 model years had one PCM and 3rd year switched
Example for C6 the 2005-06 LS2 had a E40 PCM and since it was a short cycle some tuning tool vendors did not bother to backward engineer the E40 as it was not worth the support for just 2 model years

Now C7, 2014 model, well 2016 EPA requires 36 MPG so you can be sure again 2 model years and then who knows what PCM will be used

E92 is supposed to be a better auto learner to changes, if so and certain mods can be done with any tuning then it lowers the need to have a tuning tool and less tuner tool vendors will want to spend the R&D costs to backward engineer a 2 year E92 ECM

Add all the new LT1 changes, even CAMs as intake and exhaust valves have swapped locations vendors cannot do as with C6 and claim "secret" C6 custom CAMs that were nothing but 3rd party CAM grinds for the LS1/6

Now the 2,000 plus PSI for DI and DOD with VVT and you can bet very few mods will even exist to buy for LT1.

Exhaust, same deal as now there is another set of exhaust butterflies to prevent 4 cylinder exhaust drone and what now controls them and the ones in the mufflers.

I think it is clear that any thought as was done with C6s were brand new ones owners hacked/modded in first month is not going to happen with C7 and frankly with those new engine functions would anyone want to even gamble on mods and claimed hacks against their new car warranty ?
And being LT1 design is new and no vendors have experience fir it would you want to be their testpig or bogus claims ?

As I do custom tuning I can clearly say that the state this country has been in that far fewer C6 owners wanted any mods in fear of losing GM warranty and the fact GM now knows if their ECMs were hacked
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:44 PM   #23
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it has been used for 3 years over there and not one person has cracked it, nor how the PCM has to connect and exchange protocol client to server
It so bad that owners of performance cars in Europe are forced to change to different PCMs and remove engine functions that older PCMs were not designed for.

Lots of hype on doing C7 mods when hackers have no clue on how GM designed all the coding for DOD, VVT, DI, or even rev matching so its a bet that IF PCM was hacked there will be lots of LT1s blown up as was seen when the E38 and E67s PCM were used in later C6s much less understanding either the E92 or E95 PCMs.

It would be foolish for anyone buying a C7 now hack the car up and GM yank all warranty as new PCM is sure to report via Onstar if PCM has been hacked.
Thanks for the update/confirmation.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:17 AM   #24
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If you do an internet search for "E92 ECM" there is a ton of info out there from countless people trying to hack or backward engineer for E92 and failed

Here is one thread
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-g...7s-future.html

E92 is not new, has even been used on the Cobolt SS, Dodge, BMW, etc

I know 3 vendors who make tuning tools and they all had to give up as the software is too complex.

It has to with the VVT, DI and DOD.

Other then that look at the early years of C4,C5,C6 and the first 2 model years had one PCM and 3rd year switched
Example for C6 the 2005-06 LS2 had a E40 PCM and since it was a short cycle some tuning tool vendors did not bother to backward engineer the E40 as it was not worth the support for just 2 model years

Now C7, 2014 model, well 2016 EPA requires 36 MPG so you can be sure again 2 model years and then who knows what PCM will be used

E92 is supposed to be a better auto learner to changes, if so and certain mods can be done with any tuning then it lowers the need to have a tuning tool and less tuner tool vendors will want to spend the R&D costs to backward engineer a 2 year E92 ECM

Add all the new LT1 changes, even CAMs as intake and exhaust valves have swapped locations vendors cannot do as with C6 and claim "secret" C6 custom CAMs that were nothing but 3rd party CAM grinds for the LS1/6

Now the 2,000 plus PSI for DI and DOD with VVT and you can bet very few mods will even exist to buy for LT1.

Exhaust, same deal as now there is another set of exhaust butterflies to prevent 4 cylinder exhaust drone and what now controls them and the ones in the mufflers.

I think it is clear that any thought as was done with C6s were brand new ones owners hacked/modded in first month is not going to happen with C7 and frankly with those new engine functions would anyone want to even gamble on mods and claimed hacks against their new car warranty ?
And being LT1 design is new and no vendors have experience fir it would you want to be their testpig or bogus claims ?

As I do custom tuning I can clearly say that the state this country has been in that far fewer C6 owners wanted any mods in fear of losing GM warranty and the fact GM now knows if their ECMs were hacked
cheers. i join the above post in saying thanks for the info... much appreciated.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:16 PM   #25
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The more that is found out about C7 design the more unknowns there is about tuning, control and what new controllers there are which will not be touched by the PCM itself.

Tenneco announced it is supplying key emission control technologies, including electrical valves, for the 2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray, one of the most highly anticipated vehicles debuting in 2013.
Considered one of the key performance features of the car, the Corvette’s exhaust system delivers a unique signature sound.
Most notably, the Corvette’s standard exhaust system is the first vehicle to utilize electrical valve technology for sound tuning.

The electric valves are designed to work in concert with the vehicle’s Active Fuel Management (AFM) system, a fuel-saving four-cylinder mode versus eight-cylinder mode.

The valves open and close to control the Corvette’s exhaust sound as it switches between the two engine modes.


In addition to the valves highlighted in the AFM system, the exhaust system features an option which includes two additional electrical valves in the tailpipes, tuned specifically for enhanced sound quality.

These valves remain closed during normal driving conditions and open during harder acceleration, creating lower backpressure, more engine power and most importantly, Corvette’s signature sound.
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