Camaro Z28 prototype production ramping up? Z/28 driveshafts ordered by GM!

[radz28]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

If you were to remove the front fascia on a G8 you would find almost no metal structure forward of the strut towers. A Camaro is built like a submarine where every opening is like a hatch surrounded by a bulkhead. Some of this is for style, but it all doubles for strength. Remove the front fascia on a Camaro and there is steel to the front. You can see the surround of steel like a bulkhead when you open the hood, but I digress.

Underneath the car the ZETA or ZETA II sub-frame runs mounts with six bolts -- three per side. All the functional elements of the front suspension are part of the sub-frame including the sway bar. On a Mustang, the sway bar is mounted beneath the radiator, but not connected to the front sub-frame. This leaves the steering rack mounted to the sub-frame and the front sway bar connect by endlinks but not connect by sub-frame. Adding a lattice style brace to the Mustang front sub-frame ties the sway bar to the sub-frame. It doesn't sound like much, but it makes a HUGE difference in the feel and performance of the car. For the daily driver, the car jut feels like it is a better built automobile -- more solid and substantial -- and it is better built with the brace. For a performance driver, the front sub-frame just grew a foot, the sway bar becomes more efficient, the vehicle stays tight in a turn becoming more predictable without becoming unsettled over rough spots in the pavement.

At Pedders, we do not think the OEM guys are dumb. We think they are very bright and do a very good job of building within the constraints of the market. They have to build to suit the only driven to church on Sunday by a little old lady road feel and the Speed Racer I'm taking it to the track all while trying to meet a cabin noise level budget and a bean counter budget. We happen to have the luxury of selling premium parts at premium prices to enthusiast that love their cars. We like to think that if the engineers at GM or Ford could do what they wanted to do without budget constraints and built just for enthusiasts they would produce Pedders parts.

I meant to ask, earlier, if you believe SFCs are necessary if we improve what you and, for example, Pfadt, are offering us for the chassis? I we replace all the bushings in your guys' kits, is it still necessary? I know I could feel a great different in my two 4th Gens., but I know this is a different car and it's leaps-and-bounds better, but why add more weight it there is not going to be an appreciable improvement? After seeing the video of the rear subframe bushing replacement from Pfadt, I'm thinking it's less necessary to add connectors if I replace the parts you and Pfadt offer.

What are your thoughts?

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I meant to ask, earlier, if you believe SFCs are necessary if we improve what you and, for example, Pfadt, are offering us for the chassis? I we replace all the bushings in your guys' kits, is it still necessary? I know I could feel a great different in my two 4th Gens., but I know this is a different car and it's leaps-and-bounds better, but why add more weight it there is not going to be an appreciable improvement? After seeing the video of the rear subframe bushing replacement from Pfadt, I'm thinking it's less necessary to add connectors if I replace the parts you and Pfadt offer.

What are your thoughts?

I get flamed by by brand X whenever I post this, but the 2010 Camaro does NOT require any form of strut tower bar, chassis braces or replacement of control arms. I worked on the GM prototype Camaro race car that was shown at SEMA 2008. The gutted race car was caged with a strut tower bars. Aside from a full on caged race car, the 2010 Camaro requires NO braces and NO replacement of arms. I can say that the prototype did replace the sub-frame bushes with hand made Delrin. The car did use an assortment of Pedders bits, but road on KONI coilovers because it was the prototype for the KONI series. All other GM owned Camaros at SEMA ride on Pedders Xa coilovers including high profile build like the Leno Camaro and Earnhardt Camaro. All of the Xa coilovers kits on these GM vehicles are purchased by GM. I wish I could say more, suffice it to say we know the ZETA and ZETA II chassis intimately.

What does an enthusiast really need for the Camaro to be at the next level? It is a short list.

1. Radius Bush Inserts. The OEM bush i hydraulically damped to keep it quiet and smooth. Quiet and smooth translate into number steering and vague brake pedal feel. A simple insert replacing the OEM rubber insert with urethane makes a huge difference. Move to the larger insert a bigger difference. Change out the bush for the biggest difference. Most Camaro owners need only EP6578 Inserts.

2. Sub-frame Inserts: To keep the Camaro library quiet, so quiet it brings in import buyers, the Camaro team of engineers worked very hard on isolating the rear sub-frame. The same engineering that makes it so quiet contributes to rear end step out. The rear sub-frame moves and steers the car. That is why the race car uses Delrin. Delrin is hard, is terrible for NVH and wears out fast. It is not an option for a daily driver nor desirable for a daily driver. We make sub-frame insert, full bushes and Delrin for the street hard bushes that will last the life of the car. What do you need -- just the sub-frame bush inserts EP1200. These insert have minimal effect on NVH but almost eliminate rear end step out.

3. Coilovers: GM still uses a red zone better suited to trucks than cars. The wheel gaps are too large for mot of us. The coils and springs are not all that bad. Being able to adjust damping from soft to hard and set the vehicle at what you view as the perfect height is why the Xa coilover would be the third item on your list. Matched with the sub-fram and radius bush inserts your Camaro becomes an AMAZING machine and it is still almost OEM quiet and comfortable.

4. Sway Bars: These are the final tuning elements for your Camaro. Most drivers have more car stock than they are capable of driving. A better car makes them a better driver. I fall into that category. Adding sway should be done ONLY after steps 1,2 and 3 have been completed. What good is less lean if your rear end is still trying to steer the front of the car?

A 2010 Camaro does not need much. I have EVRYTHING on my car and still want more. Do I need more -- No. So what, I WANT MORE. One last time, forget about chassis braces and replacement arms on your 2010 Camaro. GM did this car really right.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I get flamed by by brand X whenever I post this, but the 2010 Camaro does NOT require any form of strut tower bar, chassis braces or replacement of control arms. I worked on the GM prototype Camaro race car that was shown at SEMA 2008. The gutted race car was caged with a strut tower bars. Aside from a full on caged race car, the 2010 Camaro requires NO braces and NO replacement of arms. I can say that the prototype did replace the sub-frame bushes with hand made Delrin. The car did use an assortment of Pedders bits, but road on KONI coilovers because it was the prototype for the KONI series. All other GM owned Camaros at SEMA ride on Pedders Xa coilovers including high profile build like the Leno Camaro and Earnhardt Camaro. All of the Xa coilovers kits on these GM vehicles are purchased by GM. I wish I could say more, suffice it to say we know the ZETA and ZETA II chassis intimately.

What does an enthusiast really need for the Camaro to be at the next level? It is a short list.

1. Radius Bush Inserts. The OEM bush i hydraulically damped to keep it quiet and smooth. Quiet and smooth translate into number steering and vague brake pedal feel. A simple insert replacing the OEM rubber insert with urethane makes a huge difference. Move to the larger insert a bigger difference. Change out the bush for the biggest difference. Most Camaro owners need only EP6578 Inserts.

2. Sub-frame Inserts: To keep the Camaro library quiet, so quiet it brings in import buyers, the Camaro team of engineers worked very hard on isolating the rear sub-frame. The same engineering that makes it so quiet contributes to rear end step out. The rear sub-frame moves and steers the car. That is why the race car uses Delrin. Delrin is hard, is terrible for NVH and wears out fast. It is not an option for a daily driver nor desirable for a daily driver. We make sub-frame insert, full bushes and Delrin for the street hard bushes that will last the life of the car. What do you need -- just the sub-frame bush inserts EP1200. These insert have minimal effect on NVH but almost eliminate rear end step out.

3. Coilovers: GM still uses a red zone better suited to trucks than cars. The wheel gaps are too large for mot of us. The coils and springs are not all that bad. Being able to adjust damping from soft to hard and set the vehicle at what you view as the perfect height is why the Xa coilover would be the third item on your list. Matched with the sub-fram and radius bush inserts your Camaro becomes an AMAZING machine and it is still almost OEM quiet and comfortable.

4. Sway Bars: These are the final tuning elements for your Camaro. Most drivers have more car stock than they are capable of driving. A better car makes them a better driver. I fall into that category. Adding sway should be done ONLY after steps 1,2 and 3 have been completed. What good is less lean if your rear end is still trying to steer the front of the car?

A 2010 Camaro does not need much. I have EVRYTHING on my car and still want more. Do I need more -- No. So what, I WANT MORE. One last time, forget about chassis braces and replacement arms on your 2010 Camaro. GM did this car really right.

Cool. Thank you for your comments.

What are your subframe inserts made of?

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have entered Pfadt into my post (maybe not even into this one), but I wanted to be direct in what I'm comparing in my head. Your two companies are at the top of my personal list, hence the reason I was specific. I didn't mean to get into a finger-pointing deal, and thank you for not turning it into one. Kudos to you, as always.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz282003

Cool. Thank you for your comments.

What are your subframe inserts made of?

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have entered Pfadt into my post (maybe not even into this one), but I wanted to be direct in what I'm comparing in my head. Your two companies are at the top of my personal list, hence the reason I was specific. I didn't mean to get into a finger-pointing deal, and thank you for not turning it into one. Kudos to you, as always.

We really should redirect this to a new thread. We are in the Z28 or V28 thread. That said, our bushes are a very high quality urethane. Last I checked the price range for urethane was between $40 to just under $500. The difference is in the elasticity / durability. Any urethane works well for a while. The good stuff, read the very expensive stuff lasts next to forever.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

We really should redirect this to a new thread. We are in the Z28 or V28 thread. That said, our bushes are a very high quality urethane. Last I checked the price range for urethane was between $40 to just under $500. The difference is in the elasticity / durability. Any urethane works well for a while. The good stuff, read the very expensive stuff lasts nest to forever.

How about this:

So, with the idea that GM is producing Z28, one of the biggest concerns I have (it's actually for the 5th Gen. in general) is the wheel hop, and especially after seeing the video of the rear subframe dancing around, I'm concerned that though I'm sure the engineers will do their best to meet all expectations, there's still going to be a performance compromise that enthusiasts can improve upon, and ultimately help the car stay together. In saying that, I think this discussion, on improving what GM's already provided us, might help some of us, who like to go fast, understand and address known weak points (and, maybe, to a small extent, if GM's watching and reading, they might be able to engineer the OEM bushings in such a way they control the cradle better). Keeping axle tramp down is going to allow the powertrain to survive, so if we discuss how to plant the power better, maybe we can corelate this discussion to a car that doesn't exist that should handle better than SS out of the gate.

Did that huge run-on work? I know I have a headache now trying to type what I was thinking and bring this all back to Z28 :(

[Robert91RS]

Still seams on topic to me. So what about the potential weight savings in aftermarket control arms Pete? Aluminum or Tubular arms could still offer a significant drop in weight right? I bumped into a Camaro control arm the other day on my shelf and it weighed 33lbs! Surely that would make changing them advantagous(spl?).

[JusticePete]

With your permission, I'll reply to both.

Wheel hop is a harmonic issue just like reverberation in a theater sound system. It starts out smalls, travels through the suspension until it explodes as wheel hop or axle tramp. Eliminating this requires the 'acoustic' be altered. Changing coils, dampers and bushes ALL alter harmonics. Contributing factors include tire compound and wheel alignment both change the way the tire connects to the road surface. That means changing rear wheel camber and the tire (stickier, wider, sidewall etc...). There is one more key factor -- the driver and we can't forget about RWHP.

So what is the short answer to wheel hop? Camber and sub-frame mounting. The less rear camber the better. The more square you can keep the tire to the pavement -- keep in mind when the car launches and squats the rear suspension negative rear wheel camber increases leading to the main tire contact being the inner edge of the tire with the outer edge barely touching -- the greater the potential for wheel hop.

Adjusting the rear camber to as close to wagon wheel straight as possible is a significant improvement created with a simple wheel alignment. It requires no parts. It has the side benefit of reducing understeer too. So step one is to square up the rear wheel to the pavement as much as possible through alignment. We do make a rear camber and toe bolt kit that doubles the OE range of adjustment, but the OEM bolts will allow you to get close.

A simple set of sub-frame insert will settle down the sub-frame motion you see in brand-x videos. The higher the RWHP the greater the need for a full sub-frame bush replacement until we get to the very hard Delrin for the street level of sub-frame bush. Adding more urethane to the rear IRS will continue to reduce overall compliance making the IRS more stable with each bush kit and incrementally reducing wheel hop. This would include replacing the differential bushes with a progressive voided set of bushes or moving to a much harder solid bush. Keep in mind, the harder the material the noisier they will be.

Finally we get to tires, gear ration and RWHP. My car simply shreds the tires. We are a true 530 at the rear wheels, with a gear change by wheel and tire size. The 305/30/19s put us at I think a 373. With a full Pedders suspension and the Bridgestone RE-11s it just rip the rubber off the tires and no wheel hop -- none. OE RWHP and SUV size wheel and tires are a real challenge. They limit slip and are efficient in that respect, but that is a HUGE wheel and tire combination to keep under control. The GM wheel hop update helps. Learning how to launch helps. The modifications listed above all help. It isn't a single solution. It is a combination of solutions.

Saving weight is always a good thing in a performance car. On the other hand, I am rather fond of the extensive durability testing OEMs do on things like control arms and curb impacts. The rose style joints that are incorporated into the rear control arms a a good example of excellence in GM engineering. Our car is pull 1.38 Gs on the track with street tires. That is great grip and I send my drivers out with all the confidence in the world that the arms will do what they are supposed to do.

A built in bias at Pedders i that our part should install just like the OEM bits. We try to avoid altering the structural integrity of the vehicle because we have so much respect for the OEM development process. We look at the OEM bit and try to see what we can do to enhance the performance without throwing the system out of balance. It is a fine line.

If anyone is still awake after reading this

[camaro4mybday]

pete would these lil fixes work for the ls/lt versions as well

[Mr Twisty]

That's some good reading, Pete.
.... Oh, and SS-V sounds better

[radz28]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

That's some good reading, Pete.
.... Oh, and SS-V sounds better

+2! You could talk for days; and I'd listen, lol.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

The LS9 wouldnt be bad..except for the fact that it is built by hand and would raise the price of the Camaro too much.

The GT500 puts down closer to 470 at the wheels, not 500. Will the GT500 still be able to outrun it? probably, but it will be drivers race as both will be 6 sp manuals.

2010's are putting down more than the 07-09s. I've seen 500rwhp dynos from '10 GT500s.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by camaro4mybday

pete would these lil fixes work for the ls/lt versions as well

Yes.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

That's some good reading, Pete.
.... Oh, and SS-V sounds better

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz282003

+2! You could talk for days; and I'd listen, lol.

Thank you.