[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I think the only aspect that "failed" was maybe they confused general enthusiasm for the cars vs people who would actually buy.

They may have had "promises" to sell every 2014 Z/28 that was made, but that didn't happen. So, going off of the stated desires to purchase 2014's..they made more 2015's than there were really buyers.

Basically...they built too many 2015's due to people saying they would buy one, but never did.

And the internet is to blame for that! lol We enthusiasts are terrible about being excited for cars we will never own.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

My point is both engines probably aren't as expensive as everyone is lead to believe. Both have cost savings aspects. But then you are right...two very different business models.

I think the message that is forgot in this whole debate is, the GT350 would likely not exist without the Z/28. A 6th gen Z/28 would probably not be made without the GT350R. Both cars need each other.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Whoever is or isn't losing money on these two halo cars we win for sure. Not only is it awesome fun watching the comparos and bench racing each other and debating them, it makes the whole segment better next gen. with trickle down tech.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And the internet is to blame for that! lol We enthusiasts are terrible about being excited for cars we will never own.

SH*# you mean its our fault??? LOL!!
Yeah....kinda...

[SpookShow'84]

Originally Posted by Thor142

LOL. That post really was brilliant. It was just close enough to what some of the people are saying here to make me believe it yet at the same time illustrated deeply flawed logic.

Spookshow you should get some sort of award for that.

Thanks, every once in a while the pitchers will leave one hanging and I was able to really get ahold of that one.

Thread needed a little bit of comic relief anyway, no hard feelings to anybody, game on.

[TheSpectre]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Unlike many, I do not have unlimited time to argue this so I am shutting my responses down as I have made my point and a refusal to accept them is not my problem. From the support I have received on this thread, it is clear to me that I have provided multiple justifications for the car being a tremendous value. I provided the Wiki link because I figured it was the most concise data on Q Scores for those that have never heard of them. However, if you would like to actually dive into the actual way the data is derived, please....by all means...here is the actual site..... http://www.qscores.com/Web/default.aspx . This can answer your questions directly from the source.

I am growing weary of this conversation as it seems no amount of evidence (whether it be VIR times, retail price to build, or Q rating data) will change the mind of those who are bitter that GM built the Z/28 the way they did in the Gen5 Camaro. I for one (with a few others) get it and are happy to see GM continuing to build on a good thing. And with that, I am done. Thanks for the participation.

You started this thread.

You've claimed that the increase in the Camaro brand's Q score as a result of the Z28 matters... but you have repeatedly failed to explain HOW it matters. Chevy only profits (quite literally) if the raised awareness (which is essentially what a Q score is) leads to increased sales. The Z28 came out in 2014. 2 years later and Camaro sales are statistically worse, not better. Therefore, whereas the Q score itself might have increased, it's done nothing for the financial bottom line. I am NOT saying that makes the Z28 a failure. I AM saying it disproves your comments that the improved Q score is of any value to Chevy.

The Q score link you provided is to a private company that nets this data, so it is not objective. It is inherently biased.

You claiming your "support" from fellow forum members in this thread as validating your position is fallacious. Truth and science are not democracies.

You have not yet been able to provide any sort of fully developed, reasoned argument to tell me why I am incorrect. Newsflash: I WANT you to prove me wrong. That's why I was asking you so politely in the beginning. I want to be made to understand. Your condescension and evasiveness in your replies speaks volumes. You are not a reputable source of information.

Good day.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by TheSpectre

The Q score link you provided is to a private company that nets this data, so it is not objective. It is inherently biased.

Not picking sides here, but Nielsen ratings are the same way. But "accepted" as an indicator of a TV shows popularity. I feel their system is biased too, but that doesn't stop the industry from using it.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

My point is both engines probably aren't as expensive as everyone is lead to believe. Both have cost savings aspects. But then you are right...two very different business models.

I think the message that is forgot in this whole debate is, the GT350 would likely not exist without the Z/28. A 6th gen Z/28 would probably not be made without the GT350R. Both cars need each other.

I'm sure the GT350/R would still have existed. It followed the BOSS/LS formula very closely.

[TheSpectre]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Not picking sides here, but Nielsen ratings are the same way. But "accepted" as an indicator of a TV shows popularity. I feel their system is biased too, but that doesn't stop the industry from using it.

I get what you're saying, but I wanted him to show me some sort of external validity to the Q score, regardless of its use.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

I'm sure the GT350/R would still have existed. It followed the BOSS/LS formula very closely.

Missing for 2 years.... I guess it's possible. But to not answer the Z/28 was not an option for Ford I'm sure and definitely shaped it's development. Specifically the R.

Originally Posted by TheSpectre

I get what you're saying, but I wanted him to show me some sort of external validity to the Q score, regardless of its use.

I hear you. Marketing is as much smoke and mirrors as political polls. Everyone has an agenda and a metric to prove it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I think the only aspect that "failed" was maybe they confused general enthusiasm for the cars vs people who would actually buy.

They may have had "promises" to sell every 2014 Z/28 that was made, but that didn't happen. So, going off of the stated desires to purchase 2014's..they made more 2015's than there were really buyers.

Basically...they built too many 2015's due to people saying they would buy one, but never did.

For this reason I make it clear I'm not a buyer. Some of the most passionate commentary about what the Z/28 should be are from those that didn't buy one last time.

Had the gen5 Z/28 been a LS7 in a 1LE spec chassis, I would have bought up to ~$63k-ish. It was too focuses and too expensive for me but I wasn't the customer they were aiming for.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by hotlap

For this reason I make it clear I'm not a buyer. Some of the most passionate commentary about what the Z/28 should be are from those that didn't buy one last time.

Had the gen5 Z/28 been a LS7 in a 1LE spec chassis, I would have bought up to ~$63k-ish. It was too focuses and too expensive for me but I wasn't the customer they were aiming for.

If the Z/28 was a 1LE with the LS7, it would have been as expensive as the ZL1 but slower in every way.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If the Z/28 was a 1LE with the LS7, it would have been as expensive as the ZL1 but slower in every way.

I would have been ok with that (mid to high 50s)! Like a GT350TP. I wanted an LS7 but CCB and the tires where too much for me. Chevy's aim was more focused than me. I'm ok with that too.

[kasperdsmk]

Originally Posted by Tr6

Even if the price is cheaper, people will always find something to bitch and moan about. Is the price high? Umm no? Considering the performance, bells and whistles you get. Good luck getting that with any other car that is less than 60k. M3/4, Lexus F models, Jags, C7s, etc, the list goes on and we aren't talking about a comparison between old and used cars. 2016 makes and models+ only. Not to mention the ridiculously cheap aftermarket component of it (compared to imports) too. Missing the entire premise of the 6th gen. Camaro vs EVERYBODY. Just wait till the numbers of the ZL1 and Z/28 are out... Our SS is even good performance, those 2 will be BEASTS and hunting for blood of EVERYBODY and cheaper than EVERYBODY for the performance it will have.

Not to mention that a CAMARO is still VERY affordable. 2.0T model... V6. Want more power? Pay to play. Can't afford it at the moment? No problem. Be patient and wait till there are gen6 SS's that have been used for a year or two then get em for mid to high 30s (2SS that is, 1SS probably around low 30s in a couple years). I hate to compare the gen6 ss to the S550 GTs but even if I build that (was curious), I end up looking at 45k for it and if you look at the gt350's it's 55k (and that's just MSRP, GOOD LUCK finding them with less than 10k above MSRP), and my build of the SS was 46.5k which has more bells and whistles, better driving characteristics and much much more comfortable on the open road too. So... Not really following the "expensive" part.

If only we could of knew what the future had in store for us lol 2ss for 29 and 30k

[kingbambino22]

2014-15 Z/28 was overpriced. the 1LE was the best bang for buck P.S. I'm an x owner 2015 Z/28. 2013 1LE Camaro also. 2010 Camaro SS also

[archer1965]

Keep making them all, Chevy! I've had a 68 Firebird, 70SS, and now a 16 2SS, love em all, no matter the price.

The better the technology now, the better it will be in five years for a used car you can afford. Who ever said you had to buy new?