[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Raven87

Yep - I didn't catch that it was getting Used as well as new. Still shows 61 though all new.

Ok was making sure I didn't miss a selection.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[TheSpectre]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

It sold the Gen5 car (lower trim cars) which outsold the Mustang almost every month it was manufactured.

You brought up that this "Q" rating spiked when the Z/28 came out. Sales of it, and the Camaro lineup as a whole, tanked and have not improved since. Does that not debunk your theory?

[KyleL]

I'm sure this was already touched on, but I didn't read all 10 pages. While I can see the point of a 40k car being out of reach for some, they aren't the only brand that has increased....trucks, cars, and SUVs all have. Remember when you could get a xcab/cc v8 for under 20k? Financing has also got longer terms and good rates too. It's not a stretch at all to have a 1ss, maybe even a 2ss for around 500/mo with good credit and 0 down if you're willing to stretch it out for 84 months or so. I think this may bring it into the hands of more individuals

[clanky]

Originally Posted by KyleL

I'm sure this was already touched on, but I didn't read all 10 pages. While I can see the point of a 40k car being out of reach for some, they aren't the only brand that has increased....trucks, cars, and SUVs all have. Remember when you could get a xcab/cc v8 for under 20k? Financing has also got longer terms and good rates too. It's not a stretch at all to have a 1ss, maybe even a 2ss for around 500/mo with good credit and 0 down if you're willing to stretch it out for 84 months or so. I think this may bring it into the hands of more individuals

Yeah, I remember complaining about loaded tahoe's going for 30ish.... All vehicles sure have gone up a lot and I don't think everyone pay is increasing as fast as the prices are either.

[EddieC]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

well the v8 may not be accessible for all but you can get a Camaro in the $20's still so I would say that GM has not left that segment of the market behind while they expand the top side of the market as well.

Back in 69 not everyone could afford a Z28, I bought mine in 76. I love the idea of a car that costs $80,000 throwing down against cars that cost $250,000+

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by TheSpectre

You brought up that this "Q" rating spiked when the Z/28 came out. Sales of it, and the Camaro lineup as a whole, tanked and have not improved since. Does that not debunk your theory?

Not at all. This discussion is fruitless. Marketing of Air Jordan's sold NIKE shoe in general, many....many more than Air Jordan's specifically. Tiger Wood's sold NIKE golfing products, not just the high end clubs he would use. The list goes on and on. The MARKETING around the Z/28 sold the Camaro, not specifically the Z/28. The Z/28 was not accessible to most and not available to many others. The marketing of the Z/28 started well before the car was released, same with the ZL1. Both halo car's by the #'s compared to the SS and base model Camaro. YET, GM has steadfastly attested to their contribution to the sales of the entire Camaro line and the Q rating is just ONE WAY of affirming that while the halo car's sales may have not been great in the eyes of the public, to GM they were marketing GOLD.

GM would not be doubling down on a product that failed and if the video's tell us anything...that is exactly what they are doing. I know most you could care less about the analytics associated to product marketing and can't see past EBAY or the showroom floor but GM and others in the industry understand the benefit of a high end product that few can afford but many will admire and thus buy in at a lower level. This again is basic marketing, show and demonstrate the best, sell the basic to mid level @ volume.

I think this argument has run its course. Those who believe it was a mistake will never accept the premise and those of us that accept and understand why the Z/28 was built will never be able to get those cars off ebay to convince you otherwise.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by Raven87

AutoTrader is wrong. Cars.Com shows 65 new Z/28s within 500 miles of my Zip Code alone and 171 nationally. And this is weeks AFTER the big fire sale of 15% or more off.

C.C shows 41 new Vipers coast to coast.

And you are the rarity who went from BMW to GM. Good for you.

Originally Posted by Raven87

Yep - I didn't catch that it was getting Used as well as new. Still shows 61 though all new.

CC shows 61 Z/28's and 92 Vipers (there is still a new 2010 Viper for sale in CT with 12 miles). These are niche cars, not for everyone.

Enthusiasts in general are rarities. It's a miracle manufacturers cater to us at all.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Posaune

When your V8 starts at $37,295 and your direct competitors start at $31,995 (Challenger R/T) and $32,395, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. Not everyone buying SS Camaros, Mustang GTs and Challenger R/Ts are looking for the best performing or are a brand loyal enthusiast. Many are looking for an affordable V8 sport coupe that looks good. It doesn't matter that the Camaro SS will run circles around both of them.

I believe team Camaro should be looking to out perform both as well as many other cars that cost much more but the laser focus on standard performance (and the cost that came with it) will hurt Camaro in the long run.

I can address the Challenger: Dated design, cast iron engine, 1/4 mile for the R/T is in the high 13s meaning be afraid of the V6 Camaro.... Heck you can't even be sure against the trubo 4... So please.

The Mustang GT is absolutely destroyed and by an SS and once you get the brakes, suspension, cooling you are close to same price. Plus many of us have a GM card and I got an additional $3000 off, Ford and Dodge don't offer that.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

CC shows 61 Z/28's and 92 Vipers (there is still a new 2010 Viper for sale in CT with 12 miles). These are niche cars, not for everyone.

Enthusiasts in general are rarities. It's a miracle manufacturers cater to us at all.

I only searched Vipers for '13-'16 model years. The 2010 Viper for sale is one the dealer is holding out for pretty much the MSRP (pipe dream) but hey, it's his money that's tied up and his to sell. Obviously, the market won't bear that sort of price, at least not right now, or it would have sold already.

And one of the reason the '13 and newer Vipers did not sell was not so much they were niche market vehicles (which of course they are) but because their pricing was ridiculous when the Gen 5s came out. Almost no one was willing to pay the $130K for a Viper.

The manufacturer can price the vehicle wherever they want but if the buying public feels the pricing is too high vs what they are getting, sales will never get off the ground.

And that is when you see price drops, 15-20% off sales, etc. Those incentives tell you the price is too high to begin with.

Seen any dealer incentives on Hellcats yet? I sure haven't.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by EddieC

Back in 69 not everyone could afford a Z28, I bought mine in 76. I love the idea of a car that costs $80,000 throwing down against cars that cost $250,000+

I got my 69 Z/28 in 1976 too, $1800 or $2800 don't remember now? from a girl that was tired of shifting, not running right and the poor MPG, it had the highly desired options: rear disk and soon after buying it I got the cross ram and the chambered exhaust. I sold it after grad school for $18,000 and I regretted it ever since... I never put headers on it... which it needed. It was my babe magnet, I had a 440 Dart to take care of street fights. Oh and the reason it was not running right is fouled plugs and the GM valve cover with sold steel sparkplug wire holders cooking thru the plug wire. If you had a stock Z/28 you know what I'm talking about.

I worked two jobs and lived at home, you guys don't remember Jimmy Carter and 21% interest rates.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Not at all. This discussion is fruitless. Marketing of Air Jordan's sold NIKE shoe in general, many....many more than Air Jordan's specifically. Tiger Wood's sold NIKE golfing products, not just the high end clubs he would use. The list goes on and on. The MARKETING around the Z/28 sold the Camaro, not specifically the Z/28. The Z/28 was not accessible to most and not available to many others. The marketing of the Z/28 started well before the car was released, same with the ZL1. Both halo car's by the #'s compared to the SS and base model Camaro. YET, GM has steadfastly attested to their contribution to the sales of the entire Camaro line and the Q rating is just ONE WAY of affirming that while the halo car's sales may have not been great in the eyes of the public, to GM they were marketing GOLD.

GM would not be doubling down on a product that failed and if the video's tell us anything...that is exactly what they are doing. I know most you could care less about the analytics associated to product marketing and can't see past EBAY or the showroom floor but GM and others in the industry understand the benefit of a high end product that few can afford but many will admire and thus buy in at a lower level. This again is basic marketing, show and demonstrate the best, sell the basic to mid level @ volume.

I think this argument has run its course. Those who believe it was a mistake will never accept the premise and those of us that accept and understand why the Z/28 was built will never be able to get those cars off ebay to convince you otherwise.

I understand why they made the last Z/28. I get the point of the halo model. I get that it can be in the high end of the price range, but it should still be within reason of the car IMO. Look at the GT350R (and take the ADM out of it, because that is a dealer issue) It's limited production, hard to find and did its job of besting the Z/28 yet MSRP was 10K less than the Z/28. That car offers incredible performance while still offering the value that a car like the Mustang/Camaro have always had. I just think that if the Camaro crept into that 80Kish range that halo effect might backfire. I don't see why GM couldn't do the same.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I understand why they made the last Z/28. I get the point of the halo model. I get that it can be in the high end of the price range, but it should still be within reason of the car IMO. Look at the GT350R (and take the ADM out of it, because that is a dealer issue) It's limited production, hard to find and did its job of besting the Z/28 yet MSRP was 10K less than the Z/28. That car offers incredible performance while still offering the value that a car like the Mustang/Camaro have always had. I just think that if the Camaro crept into that 80Kish range that halo effect might backfire. I don't see why GM couldn't do the same.

A fair point.

Just factor in that the GT350R didn't make use of expensive (and experimental) DSSV dampers, or the CC brakes. Ford knew what they were doing when they built that thing, and they wanted to bring it in at a lower price point. Chevy was using the Z/28 as a test-bed.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

A fair point.

Just factor in that the GT350R didn't make use of expensive (and experimental) DSSV dampers, or the CC brakes. Ford knew what they were doing when they built that thing, and they wanted to bring it in at a lower price point. Chevy was using the Z/28 as a test-bed.

True they didn't use CC brakes but they used Carbon Fiber wheels, which as far as I can recall is a first and the largest flat plane crank V-8 ever put in a production vehicle.

[90503]

FWIW, I recall several early Z/28 buyers who were very familiar with tracking and other makes. They couldn't believe what a bargain the Z/28 was compared to Porsche and others as well as what the aftermarket even charged for various components....

The 5thGen Z/28 was the bargain of all time. There may be some Joe Six-Pack Camaro buyers who think the Z/28 is an overpriced Camaro, but not any track rats who were familiar with the costs associated with foreign make track-cars.....The only thing that would make complaining about the price stop is if they didn't make the Z/28 at all....and that's not going to happen....The Z/28 competes with cars that are twice the price, not against entry level Camaro street models....