Electric Vehicles

[genxer]

After a bit of casual reading, the example has to be Mullen Automotive buying Bollinger and Electric Last Mile.

Have most start-ups intentionally positioned themselves to be acquired? Why else would Lordstown be making a fleet truck with fleet unfriendly (although interesting) 4 hub motors? Who would be candidates for being interested in the company?

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It’s sort of the natural order of things. My consulting team is tracking more than 90 companies that are trying to come to market with EVs. Clearly not all of them are going to make it. To be honest, Lordstown had a better chance than most. They had a good design. They had auto industry pros in key positions. They had a plant. They had big money behind them. They had vehicles in customers’ hands. The problem they didn’t count on was a very public disagreement with their key source of funding.

There’s another situation unfolding now where Company A was about to stake out a good position in the industry with a ready for market product. They had a plant, a product, customers lined up. Their leadership did something really stupid (spelled “illegal”) and had to resign, and shortly after the company crumbled. Company B swooped in and acquired all of Company A’s assets for pennies on the dollar, including the plant and an inventory of finished EV vans. Company B also acquired controlling interest in another EV maker, Company C. So now the new company, we’ll call it ABC since it has parts of all three, has a full vehicle portfolio and a plant to build them in. I can see the same thing happening with Lordstown. There are a number of other companies who have the resources to acquire Lordstown’s assets (and people) and push forward with a stronger company. This happened a lot from the 1920s through the 1950s. New brands popped up seemingly every other week and were either strangled by the competition, got acquired by stronger players, and in some cases survived and thrived. So, rinse repeat, but 100 years later.

Jeep is one of the strongest brand names on the planet. You have to go back to Nash Motors, Willy’s, and American Motors (all just memories) to get to where they are today.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

After a bit of casual reading, the example has to be Mullen Automotive buying Bollinger and Electric Last Mile.

Good sleuthing, sir. When I talk in code or generic names it’s because I’m often not sure of how much of what I’m saying is public domain info and how much is “privileged” info.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

…

Have most start-ups intentionally positioned themselves to be acquired? Why else would Lordstown be making a fleet truck with fleet unfriendly (although interesting) 4 hub motors? Who would be candidates for being interested in the company?

No doubt there are a few companies that had at least one eye on attracting venture capital and the other eye on getting acquired. Lordstown was (is?) not one of them. They were focused on commercial applications where the hub motors would have been a non-issue. Can’t say whether they would have presented a better or worse cost position, but there would not have been a capability issue for the fleets they targeted.

[genxer]

One or two motors(not used on the hubs) can do the job. Interesting motors, designed by Elaphe. External rotor, a less heat-sensitive set up, can use cheaper rare-earth magnets. Rotor/Stator gap swept area looks large at good radius, should be torquey. Looks scalable.

4 hub motors, well controlled, on an autoX EV not-a-shifter cart would have an >1 pax (and be thought unsportsmanlike). Performance may have been a Lordstown aspiration. At least truck tank turns was.

But, I've been reading the CAM pax change thread - Some want a new ST class for muscle - Not enough want to race with an outrageous build.

Long way of thinking 4 electric motors is overreach.

[Wyzz Kydd]

And the truth can’t be concealed forever. EV’s are dogs, people don’t want them and the true driving force behind them is government mandates.

“Genesis, the Korean luxury brand, sold only 18 of its nearly $82,000 Electrified G80 sedans in the 30 days leading up to June 29, and had 210 in stock nationwide — a 350-day supply, per Cox research.
Other luxury models, like Audi’s Q4 e-tron and Q8 e-tron and the GMC Hummer EV SUV, also have bloated inventories well above 100 days. All come with hefty price tags that make them ineligible for federal tax credits.
Imported models like the Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Nissan Ariya are also stacking up — likely because they’re not eligible for tax credits either.”

When you only sell 18 cars worldwide in a month that’s not good. Look at the inventory levels.

“The once-hot Ford Mustang Mach-E now has a 117-day supply. Ford says that’s the result of ramped-up production in anticipation of stronger third-quarter sales.”

We’ll see whether those anticipated 3rd quarter sales happen. I’m betting they don’t. If you want an EV, first quarter 2024 will be the time to buy. Dealers will be having ‘fire’ sales.

https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/...-dumps-n563901

[docwra]

The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car globally in Q1 2023, here in the UK 16% of new cars sales are full electric. Maybe the Genesis is just shit?

[Blue 13]

Originally Posted by docwra

The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car globally in Q1 2023, here in the UK 16% of new cars sales are full electric. Maybe the Genesis is just shit?

Maybe it’s because your government said it’s banning the sale of all ICE vehicles in 2030. Doesn’t sound like fair market to me. Enjoy your rolling blackouts and brownouts. Oh that’s right, they’ll just stop you from driving. Greater good and all that.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

And the truth can’t be concealed forever. EV’s are dogs, people don’t want them and the true driving force behind them is government mandates.

“Genesis, the Korean luxury brand, sold only 18 of its nearly $82,000 Electrified G80 sedans in the 30 days leading up to June 29, and had 210 in stock nationwide — a 350-day supply, per Cox research.
Other luxury models, like Audi’s Q4 e-tron and Q8 e-tron and the GMC Hummer EV SUV, also have bloated inventories well above 100 days. All come with hefty price tags that make them ineligible for federal tax credits.
Imported models like the Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Nissan Ariya are also stacking up — likely because they’re not eligible for tax credits either.”

When you only sell 18 cars worldwide in a month that’s not good. Look at the inventory levels.

“The once-hot Ford Mustang Mach-E now has a 117-day supply. Ford says that’s the result of ramped-up production in anticipation of stronger third-quarter sales.”

We’ll see whether those anticipated 3rd quarter sales happen. I’m betting they don’t. If you want an EV, first quarter 2024 will be the time to buy. Dealers will be having ‘fire’ sales.

https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/...-dumps-n563901

Originally Posted by docwra

The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car globally in Q1 2023, here in the UK 16% of new cars sales are full electric. Maybe the Genesis is just shit?

Inventory is actually not that straight forward… Many of the EVs that are sitting in inventory are on the more expensive end. Hummer EV, Genesis G80 (which I think is a PHEV) actually shows 784 units in inventory. That’s 23 days supply, not 350 (chart below). The Audis are (in my opinion) way over-priced, considering what’s already available as direct competition. In the case of the Hummer, I think it’s a combination of 3 things…

1. GM is reallllly slow in rolling them out so the average sales numbers are very low, making any inventory high in terms of days on hand.
2. At the price for the only variant available (@ $111k) everybody who wants one has one. They really need to work on bringing out the lower cost variants ($70 - 90k)
3. People who recognize that the upcoming Silverado is basically the same truck only much cheaper.

Some of the other more reasonably priced EVs Wyzz Kidd mentioned are sitting on the lots because of the Inflation Reduction Act. They are all imported and don’t qualify for the incentive. Even so, the industry position for Ioniq 5 is right on industry average. Ioniq 6 is still in launch mode and I think only available in CARB compliant states. More reasonably priced EVs that qualify for the IRA incentives are flying off the lots. Bolt and Bolt EUV each have about 30 day supplies. Mach E inventory has dropped from 112 days inventory at the end of May to 83 days at the end of June, so Ford may have been telling the truth. There may also be some build ahead in preparation for a likely strike. There are other Ford nameplates that look like they are building ahead.

And then there’s Tesla. Hard to include them because they are in a class of their own wrt EV sales. As docwra stated, Model Y is the top selling vehicle in the world. Period. And now that Tesla has again dropped prices on Model 3 and Model Y the gap is likely to widen.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Inventory is actually not that straight forward… Many of the EVs that are sitting in inventory are on the more expensive end. Hummer EV, Genesis G80 (which I think is a PHEV) actually shows 784 units in inventory. That’s 23 days supply, not 350 (chart below). The Audis are (in my opinion) way over-priced, considering what’s already available as direct competition. In the case of the Hummer, I think it’s a combination of 3 things…

1. GM is reallllly slow in rolling them out so the average sales numbers are very low, making any inventory high in terms of days on hand.
2. At the price for the only variant available (@ $111k) everybody who wants one has one. They really need to work on bringing out the lower cost variants ($70 - 90k)
3. People who recognize that the upcoming Silverado is basically the same truck only much cheaper.

Some of the other more reasonably priced EVs Wyzz Kidd mentioned are sitting on the lots because of the Inflation Reduction Act. They are all imported and don’t qualify for the incentive. Even so, the industry position for Ioniq 5 is right on industry average. Ioniq 6 is still in launch mode and I think only available in CARB compliant states. More reasonably priced EVs that qualify for the IRA incentives are flying off the lots. Bolt and Bolt EUV each have about 30 day supplies. Mach E inventory has dropped from 112 days inventory at the end of May to 83 days at the end of June, so Ford may have been telling the truth. There may also be some build ahead in preparation for a likely strike. There are other Ford nameplates that look like they are building ahead.

And then there’s Tesla. Hard to include them because they are in a class of their own wrt EV sales. As docwra stated, Model Y is the top selling vehicle in the world. Period. And now that Tesla has again dropped prices on Model 3 and Model Y the gap is likely to widen.

Sorry, but this statement is incorrect, and the logic is flawed. The Model Y is not the top selling vehicle. That honor goes to a real vehicle, not a sewing machine, the Ford F150, followed by the Chevy Silverado and the Dodge Ram.

Furthermore I note that you said the reason these other sewing machines aren't selling well is because they don't qualify for the incentive (a nice way of saying government subsidy paid for by the taxpayer). Essentially your argument supports my contention. If EVs had to participate on a level playing field they would fail. If the government weren't trying to pick winners and losers we wouldn't even be having this conversation because Tesla wouldn't exist nor would any of the other sewing machines.

This isn't a slam by the way, I respect your well thought out and well informed statements, I just think your biased, which is understandable given your background.

BTW, I agree with your statement about these things being overpriced, they certainly are. Buyers get an inferior product at an inflated price because the government is meddling in the market AND because the cost of producing these monstrosities is sky high and likely to increase.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Blue 13

Maybe it’s because your government said it’s banning the sale of all ICE vehicles in 2030. Doesn’t sound like fair market to me. Enjoy your rolling blackouts and brownouts. Oh that’s right, they’ll just stop you from driving. Greater good and all that.

Yep, totally right. One of my employees who lives in London has been bitching about his utility bills, which are quadruple mine, even though his 'flat' is 1/4th the size of my house. But, he voted for all this 'green' crap so I have zero sympathy.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Sorry, but this statement is incorrect, and the logic is flawed. The Model Y is not the top selling vehicle. That honor goes to a real vehicle, not a sewing machine, the Ford F150, followed by the Chevy Silverado and the Dodge Ram.

...

Best Selling Car in US in 2023:Tesla Model Y 93,294 in Q1
Best Selling Vehicle in US in 2023: Ford F150 170,377 in Q1
Best Selling Car in the World in 2023: Tesla Model Y 267,200 in Q1
Best Selling Vehicle in the World in 2023: Tesla Model Y 267,200 in Q1; (F150 ~ 183,000)

Ford F150 is projected to sell 570,820 vehicles GLOBALLY in CY 2023
Tesla Model Y is projected to sell 1,222,595 vehicles GLOBALLY in 2023

[Blue 13]

I’ve driven 3 or 4 Teslas through work. Hated them. Build quality is average at best. But hey all you small penis types that are smug over your electric car using power from burning oil & coal is enough comedic relief for the rest of us. But since our corrupt government is basically using our tax dollars to get you to drive one should be proof it’s a sham.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Best Selling Car in US in 2023:Tesla Model Y 93,294 in Q1
Best Selling Vehicle in US in 2023: Ford F150 170,377 in Q1
Best Selling Car in the World in 2023: Tesla Model Y 267,200 in Q1
Best Selling Vehicle in the World in 2023: Tesla Model Y 267,200 in Q1; (F150 ~ 183,000)

Ford F150 is projected to sell 570,820 vehicles GLOBALLY in CY 2023
Tesla Model Y is projected to sell 1,222,595 vehicles GLOBALLY in 2023

I guess it depends on where you get your numbers. Car and Driver and Automotive News reports the top selling vehicle in 2023 YTD (six months) is the F150 with sales of 382,893 vs the Model Y which is 4th with 190,500. This article was written four days ago. They noted that the Chevy Silverado and the Dodge Ram also outsold the Model Y.

Ford had some supply chain issues during the first quarter and you can't sell what you can't manufacture.

BTW, CNBC reports Ford EV sales fell YTD 2023, while F150 sales had great growth (23% I believe). EV sales constituted a whopping 2.8% of total Ford vehicle sales.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g4...ing-cars-2023/

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/06/ford...ales-jump.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/02/tesl...n-numbers.html

To sum it up. Ford sold more F150s than Tesla did Model Y's despite the fact that the F150s cost considerably more AND taxpayers are forced to subsidize Model Y sales.

Hmmm. Don't mean to rain on your parade, but your numbers are out of date AND you didn't cite any sources.

People by and large do not want to drive appliances.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

I guess it depends on where you get your numbers. Car and Driver and Automotive News reports the top selling vehicle in 2023 YTD (six months) is the F150 with sales of 382,893 vs the Model Y which is 4th with 190,500. This article was written four days ago. They noted that the Chevy Silverado and the Dodge Ram also outsold the Model Y.

Ford had some supply chain issues during the first quarter and you can't sell what you can't manufacture.

BTW, CNBC reports Ford EV sales fell YTD 2023, while F150 sales had great growth (23% I believe). EV sales constituted a whopping 2.8% of total Ford vehicle sales.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g4...ing-cars-2023/

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/06/ford...ales-jump.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/02/tesl...n-numbers.html

To sum it up. Ford sold more F150s than Tesla did Model Y's despite the fact that the F150s cost considerably more AND taxpayers are forced to subsidize Model Y sales.

Hmmm. Don't mean to rain on your parade, but your numbers are out of date AND you didn't cite any sources.

People by and large do not want to drive appliances.

My best guess is that C&D may be including F250, F350, F450, F550 in their numbers. My numbers come from my company’s data which is drawn from DMVs and Secretaries of State for all 50 states, all Canadian provinces, and Puerto Rico and is usually the source data for any reporting of vehicle sales and registration.