[PhillipG]

Hey all,

Posting today what my plans are for my 1LE; which we all know is a non-amplified system and lacks some real depth/quality/volume...

I have literally spent the last couple of weeks reading through 77 or so pages in the audio sub-forums and it seems that most people are at opposite ends of the spectrum concerning Audio upgrades; either a simple front door replacement (amplified/non); adding a sub; or a full on audiophile system.

Nothing in the middle, so I figured I would create a thread for those of us who want a complete and full audio system, utilizing all locations available, and doing so on a budget (pricing below varies by a few bucks here and there depending on the vendor).

Hoping for some advice and opinions along the way too.

The idea is simple, more speakers mean you can listen to the music at lower volumes, and feel like it comes form everywhere (They use this same principle when designing whole-home multi-room/floor audio systems).

Below is a basic wiring diagram that I sketched on a notepad:

I want to retain all the functions of the head unit of course.

I want to take the speaker level outs (all 4) to a JBL DSP4068 ($700.00 CAD); its 8 channels out @ 40WRMS/ch - 4 OHMS, or 60WRMS/ch @ 2 OHMS.

For the in car speakers I am looking at JBL Stage 3 series or the JL Audio C1 series. (JBL's are 3 OHM, JL are 4 OHM) power specs are all around 50-60WRMS.

Front: JBL 6.5 component $200 CAD / JL C1-650 component $160 CAD

Rear Seat Panel: JBL 6x9 3-way coax. $160 CAD / JL C1-690 component $190 CAD

Rear Deck: JBL 6x9 3-way coax. $160 CAD / JL C1-690tx 3-way coax. $190 CAD

For phase one the JBL set up is $1,220 CAD, and the JL is $1,240 CAD; add a couple hundred for wiring an accessories. there you go a full system less than $1,500 CAD.

Phase 2 would be to add a sub. Nothing huge, but this is super easy using the DSP in the JBL Amp. all I would need to do is get a small mono amp such as the Kicker CX400.1 ($300 CAD), using the line outputs from JBL channels 7 and 8 on the line level inputs on the Kicker and voila. Thinking of mating this Kicker amp to a JL 10 W1-V3 @ 2 OHM (300WRMS) ($249 CAD).

Planning on getting this started during the Xmas break 2023, and i will post as I go along.

Looking for input on the following:

1. With this set up I don't believe a LOC is needed? why, why not?

2. Speaker selection: Good, Bad? alternates at the same price/performance levels?

3. Door to body harness; is there room in there to run a new set of speaker wires into the doors?

Cheers!
PhillipG

[SWRocket]

As far as I know (certainly in my car) the front door speakers are 6x9 and the rear side panel speakers are 6.5s. The rear side panel speakers are mounted to the panel itself so I don't think you can fit 6x9s in there.

From a sound quality perspective, my feeling is that there are too many tweeters and mids in your plan. Even with a DSP, it will be difficult to get a clean focused sound stage with so many high frequency drivers spread around the car.
The cabin in our cars is very small and very reflective. If you really want rear fill, I would just use the side panel location and put in a 2-way 6 1/2 and use the DSP to delay and attenuate them until they provide ambiance but don't detract from the front stage. Save the cost of one set of speakers and that cost to the DSP.

For the front, you can also look at the Kicker 48KSS269

As far as DSP goes, I'm not familiar with the one you mentioned but the software looks easy to use and feature rich. The things it's missing are XO type selection (i.e. LR. BU etc) shelf filters and all pass filters. You may not need the shelf and all pass filters, but before buying it, I would shop around the classifieds on DIYMA and try to find a used Helix M6DSP. You could probably find it for about the same price and you'll have one of the best DSPs on the market.

[SWRocket]

Just in case you're interested, there was a thread on DIYMA in 2021 about the DSP4068.

[The Chief (tm)]

Assuming that non-Canadians are welcome to reply in this thread...

;-)

...I think you'll want to see any thoughts that forum member Keep_Hope_Alive might offer. Good luck with the upgrades!

[keep_hope_alive]

1. With this set up I don't believe a LOC is needed? why, why not?
- you don't need a LOC because the amp accepts balanced high level inputs. Most amps and DSP accept balanced high level inputs.

2. Speaker selection: Good, Bad? alternates at the same price/performance levels?

- Selection is fine but my recommendation is always to invest your available funds in the front components only, unless you have no budget. The rear speakers don't add value, they just add noise. I would put acoustical treatments in the front doors as part of that budget as well. My 23 has 5.25" speakers in the rear side panels, not 6x9. The rear deck of my SS coupe has almost no space to install a 6x9 because you only have a few inches of clearance from the glass to the rear deck (with cover removed).

3. Door to body harness; is there room in there to run a new set of speaker wires into the doors?

- GM uses a molex plug in the door jamb, so you're drilling to add wires. I just intercepted the wiring at the factory amp and used the factory wiring into the door.

You can see my build log effort (link in sig) which has mostly been acoustical treatments to date. I do have aftermarket components in the doors and they sound amazing in comparison to stock, even though they are powered from the stock HU at this point. Granted, they are nice speakers, but you can get them used for a really good price. Great bass response that moves my pants with zero buzzes or resonance (thanks to my door treatments) My next step is DSP amplifiers to provide factory EQ correction, more power, and tuning, and i'm a fan of VXi and MVi. I recently got a VX600/6i for $250 on FB marketplace, it just needed some of the harnesses.

My #1 budget build recommendation is used equipment. Find items that had a MSRP over a grand but are found for 1/4 to 1/2 of that price.

[Plasar]

PhillipG:

A short, sweet response for now that you might HATE because it is a complete re-think of your strategy, but it makes the design MUCH SIMPLER and less expensive:

You only need good front speakers to make an excellent soundstage, your front door speakers for mid bass, and a good subwoofer to handle the low end.

Ditch all of the speakers and amp channels for the back seats.

I did exactly this in my system and lost nothing and gained better quality speakers for the dash and doors. We kept a center channel but even this is not necessary.

Maybe your “more is more” strategy works for home stereo in a room, but the car environment is so inherently sonically flawed that very different principles apply. I have a great home stereo too.

Glad to chat more if you’re interested in details.

Good luck in any case mate!



(Update: I see SWRocket and keephopealive concur about “too many speakers”.)

[SomeGeoffGuy]

I would re-think those front speakers and get separate speakers for the door and dash - not a component set. That tweeter in that set you listed has a built in crossover, which you don't need with a DSP. I am looking at Audiofrog GS-25 for the dash. I heard a demo car at a local sound-shop last weekend and they sounded phenomenal in a Helix 8 channel DSP amp setup.

-Geoff

[Msquared]

I'm generally with Plasar on focusing efforts on the dash and door locations and then adding a sub if you really need the last octave of sound. I'll never understand the concept of rear fill, and I am 100% sure that more is not better in terms of sound quality (sound quantity is another matter, of course). The same is true of home audio, btw: a truly good stereo setup (two speakers and two amp channels) will provide a large and deep soundstage and sound a lot better than spending the same money on five speakers and amp channels.

For SomeGeoffGuy, I went with the Audiofrog GS25 in my dash and the GS690 in my doors and I'm extremely happy with the results.

[SomeGeoffGuy]

For SomeGeoffGuy, I went with the Audiofrog GS25 in my dash and the GS690 in my doors and I'm extremely happy with the results.

Nice! I was going to try to fit some Stereo Integrity 8" rounds in the door hole but the AF 6x9 are my second choice.

-Geoff

[keep_hope_alive]

Wide-band drivers in the dash corners can work well and help keep the soundstage elevated. It is a different sound profile because wide band drivers will beam and rely on the windshield for reflection of high frequencies, but you take some mids out of the doors.

A lot of cars have been successful with wide-band drivers in the dash. They don't win championships, but they are good daily drivers. The recipe that all successful competition cars have is an active 3-way front stage.

What makes most traditional 2-way components speakers suffer is you get beaming of the woofer response before the crossover point, and you get cone break-up distortion from the dust cap (or reduced efficiency if a phase plug is present). A wide-band driver solves the beaming issue that a door speaker has. Additionally, the door grille itself can help or hinder midrange response, based on the design. Beaming is present on the driver's side but not the passenger side, given aiming angles, which is why we want DSP per driver, or a suitable LPF on the door woofers that is well below beaming.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by SomeGeoffGuy

Nice! I was going to try to fit some Stereo Integrity 8" rounds in the door hole but the AF 6x9 are my second choice.

-Geoff

FWIW, Audiofrog's GS8ND is an 8" woofer designed to work in free air setups under seats and in baffles. Andy Wehmeyer, the AF honcho, says they work very well in a door mount paired with the GS25 in the dash. They weren't quite out yet when I first got my setup, but I probably would have stuck with the GS690 for my upgrade because: 1) they need more power than I wanted to pay for or add weight for, 2) they need more deadening treatment in the door and again I didn't want to add weight, and 3) they would have cost a lot more. I'm not familiar with the Stereo Integrity speaker, so I can't comment on which 8" is preferable. I think the key is how high a frequency response any 8" driver can muster, so it can integrate well with the twiddlers in the dash.

I agree with everything keep_hope_alive wrote. My mission was to upgrade my car's sound with minimum weight and expense added. It's a daily driver and autocross/track car, and I just wanted it to sound better while driving. For less than $1k total (amp, speakers, etc), it does. For a lot more money, a three-way setup with Audiofrog's GB speakers and a way better amp and DSP than I used would definitely be the ticket. I have a serious audiophile system at home for that kind of listening, though.

Also, the GS690 door woofers I used are rated down to 40hz (these are good 6x9s), and I don't think most people realize how low that really is. Most people don't need subs, and most sub installations sound awful.

[Plasar]

Msquared:

I totally respect your opinion and experience that your 6x9s go low enough for you. They can give some good, tight punch for sure. And I guess some overkill sub installs can be just ridiculous.

For me, the sub is an essential part of my car and home stereos. 40 Hz is the low E string of a bass. When you want that low end generated by a drop D or C bass, or a low synth or organ note, or the real thump of a bass drum or techno beat, you gotta have the sub with a nice driver, good sized box, or a balance of both.

In my ZL1 vert, it’s a JL 10” with dual voice coils and a compact, removable box, and 600 watts Class-D power. In my home, it’s a Sunfire TS-EQ12 sub with a 12” active driver, 12” passive radiator, in a 13” square cube with a 2,700 watt amp. With bass and low bass, it is truly omnidirectional and you cannot tell where it is coming from. I agree it shouldn’t be boomy, but tight and just strong enough.

This sub bass octave is evident in such rock songs as Starship Trooper/Yes, With My Good Eye Closed/Soundgarden, With Or Without You/U2, Today/Smashing Pumpkins, and of course lots of R&B/hip hop/rap, like The Time (Dirty Bit)/The Black Eyed Peas.

A big benefit of the JW box is that it’s easily removable if a need max luggage space.

[Msquared]

Plasar, I certainly agree that if you want full reproduction of the last octave of music, you will need a good sub setup. FWIW, the G690 goes deeper than most 6x9s and play "Starship Trooper" and "With Or Without You" pretty well, with actual pitch and timber well reproduced. Most 6x9s won't do this so well, though. A good bass torture test is "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" by Bela Fleck. The GS690 will play that the lowest bass notes in that, although you can tell they are at their limits. On my Vandersteen Quatros at home, this is super clean and effortless (they have powered subs built in).

For my needs, there was no way I was going to spend the money or take the weight/space penalty of a good sub, and I just don't do "critical listening" in my car (in particular, a Camaro on 1LE suspension/tires isn't a very quiet environment and doesn't lend itself well to this use). However, if someone does it right, I know it will sound good. I was just saying that almost nobody does it really right. IME, very few people even know what music is supposed to sound like: the only live shows they go to are rock concerts that have awful sound (they don't all have bad sound, but a lot do), they have no idea what deep acoustic double bass or a bass drum sounds like in real life, and they've never heard a decent hi-fi system playing well-recorded music.

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by Msquared

For my needs, there was no way I was going to spend the money or take the weight/space penalty of a good sub, and I just don't do "critical listening" in my car (in particular, a Camaro on 1LE suspension/tires isn't a very quiet environment and doesn't lend itself well to this use). However, if someone does it right, I know it will sound good. I was just saying that almost nobody does it really right. IME, very few people even know what music is supposed to sound like: the only live shows they go to are rock concerts that have awful sound (they don't all have bad sound, but a lot do), they have no idea what deep acoustic double bass or a bass drum sounds like in real life, and they've never heard a decent hi-fi system playing well-recorded music.

All good points, and my build is proof that the Camaro can be a quiet environment for critical listening, it's just really expensive and time consuming.