Camaro - Mustang fit/finish

[tommcd24]

Originally Posted by Chutzpah

GM was at least 50% less bad than Ford, for sure.

Because being "less bad" is the measuring stick nowadays...

Not disagreeing with you Chutzpah. Few companies these days produce products (of any type) that "exceeds expectations". It's all about making something just barely above the "acceptable" level. That way the product needs to be serviced, repaired, or replaced within a relatively short timeframe so the company can continue to sell more units in a few years.

And despite some grumbling, we as consumers buy into the cycle, mainly because the alternative is to spend 4x more on a product that is "slightly above expectations" instead of merely "acceptable". If you want "exceeds expectations" we'd have to jump all the way to a Ferrari or similar level of product which most of us can't really afford.

[KenMaro]

Finding a company that is proud of their product is hard enough, finding people that take pride in their jobs? Even tougher! This isn't just about cars, it is about everything. There is a general feeling of things/money is owed rather than working hard for those things/money.

At least, that's how it seems to me. Taking ownership and pride in a job well done doesn't mean much anymore.

[MR2Aaron]

Originally Posted by Chutzpah

I was at a Ford dealer today and had the opportunity to inspect a bunch of stangs side by side. These were 80+k GT 500’s with 12K mark up.

I know I’ve had some negative commentary about the Camaro’s fit and finish, but wowza, I was really surprised at how fords flagship sports car was slapped together. The paint was definitely thicker than GM’s, but overspray “lips” at the edges of seams and very obvious orange peal was really difficult to look at. As far as panel gaps, pretty bad on some cars and not so great on others. If you looked close, a lot of the tacked on exterior goodies we’re poorly designed. From a distance of 10’ no problem, but close up, I just couldn’t understand the lack of effort to tidy things up. and never mind that ridiculous tranny dial. Cheap to to the max.

So with all that said… I take back some of my criticism of GM’s fit and finish.

I actually owned an S550 Mustang. Fit and finish wise, I thought it was better than my Camaro is, even if its overall design was a little bit less sophisticated. I don't recall any paint defects on it, but my Camaro has a couple of little fisheyes in its paint. The Mustang was a mult-stage metallic color, whereas the Camaro is... red.

If you want to talk about horrific paint quality, let's talk about Teslas. The one I had had more fisheyes on just the hood than any other new car I've ever seen, and paint was just the tip of the proverbial iceberg with that car, in the realm of minor but obnoxious quality issues.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Chutzpah

Nah, that’s a convenient excuse people throw out there … they can do it.

They just understand their audience… and that audience (for the most part) wants performance more than perfection. If a 50k truck can look perfect, so can a 80k car. I guess my point is you shouldn’t have to pay 100k + for something to look like it’s quality. In this case, Chevy wins hands down.

Not an excuse IMO.

Like, what can you buy for $80k that's luxury that will match the performance of a GT500? You can barely get into a M3/M4 for that money, and forget about it when you start to add options. And dealers don't carry bare bone basics.

Originally Posted by s2mikey

The idea of even paying that much for a Mustang is downright insane as it is. $80K+ for a Mustang? I know, its got eleventy-billion horsepower. But still. If I spend $80K on a car its going to have a prancing horse or a bull on it somewhere.

As for Ford Chevy/ fit & finish? Neither will make you forget Lexus but they are about average for their price range and lineage. Mostly.

Sure, Big 3's fit and finish isn't as nice as a Lexus, but it will eat Lexus for lunch in terms of performance. RC-F is the most track-oriented Lexus on sale now and it's still a complete joke.

Toyota doesn't really know how to do performance car chassis, with GR Yaris possibly being the only exception, maybe. I think it was either BMW or Porsche - probably the former since BMW help Toyota made the Zupr4 - straight up laughed at Toyota for making garbage chassis that's unsuitable for performance cars.

BTW, older Ferrari and Lambo aren't exactly known for their reliability so there is that.

[willzilla]

Zero fit and finish issues with my 2021 ZL1 (bought it in Dec so have only had it for 10 months or so and 2300 miles). I had car paint corrected when I picked it up and my detailer did mention he had a little extra love he had to give my passenger door, other than that it was solid according to detailer on paint, consistency, fit and finish, etc. I think all of my panel gaps are quite good, no rattles (yet), etc. My wife has a 2019 Mustang.. Overall it's pretty good as well but def not as good as my Camaro, side by side.

[Fak_Ork]

Having owned a 2019 F150 I can say that I was not impressed with the paint on it compared to my 21 Silverado. The F150 XLT interior (introduced in 15 and running through 20) was also not a standout for materials and fit- on a 50K sticker price vehicle

[JDaniels609]

Originally Posted by 3.8TransAM

I will go Camaro appears better put together, but I will never let go of the 19+ front nose that is painted in 5 different places and none of them match. I can spot it a mile away on everyone I've seen in person. They're all that way, but it annoys the piss out of me. Bumper cover piece doesn't fit to hot either on the 20+ as well.

This kills me as well. Never realized it was such an issue until long after I ordered or I definitely would have gotten another color rather than the satin steel metallic.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

The idea of even paying that much for a Mustang is downright insane as it is. $80K+ for a Mustang? I know, its got eleventy-billion horsepower. But still. If I spend $80K on a car its going to have a prancing horse or a bull on it somewhere.

As for Ford Chevy/ fit & finish? Neither will make you forget Lexus but they are about average for their price range and lineage. Mostly.

Sorry, and I'm sure you know this, $80k won't get you close to a Ferrari or Lamborghini.

But you hit on one of my talking points for years.

Example, GM designed (Cost BOM) the Camaro to be a $25,000 car. IP and all the trim and materials are set up to be in a car that sells for $25,000. Now for $80,000 (ZL1 is close) you are still getting the IP and trim and materials from a $25,000 car. So now look at the quality in other cars in the price range of $80,000. Every Luxury/Performance OEM has a car at that price point and they are far better than any Chevy.

Best example. I bought a Saturn Sky Red Line (Factory recalibration btw was AWESOME). Hard plastic IP and door trip. Pretty much Crap other than some piano black trim to jazz it up a bit. Now this wasn't so bad in the $19,900 base Pontiac Solstice. But the Saturn Red Line stickered for $36,000 and it had the same interior. For about $3,000 more I could have got an Audi TT with a WONDERFUL interior. Those 2 cars weren't even close for DSAO, Materials, Operation Quality of switches etc.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Not an excuse IMO.

Like, what can you buy for $80k that's luxury that will match the performance of a GT500? You can barely get into a M3/M4 for that money, and forget about it when you start to add options. And dealers don't carry bare bone basics.

Sure, Big 3's fit and finish isn't as nice as a Lexus, but it will eat Lexus for lunch in terms of performance. RC-F is the most track-oriented Lexus on sale now and it's still a complete joke.

Toyota doesn't really know how to do performance car chassis, with GR Yaris possibly being the only exception, maybe. I think it was either BMW or Porsche - probably the former since BMW help Toyota made the Zupr4 - straight up laughed at Toyota for making garbage chassis that's unsuitable for performance cars.

BTW, older Ferrari and Lambo aren't exactly known for their reliability so there is that.

Yes, good points here. The value proposition is still very solid with what the big three give you for your money. Toyota does struggle with performance cars. I get it!

No question you’re asking for trouble with even a few year old Italian car. It’s just that one has to have that thought run through their head at least momentarily when spending that kind of money on a car. Like, a 360 Modena isn’t a bad car and you can get a nice one for that money. The GM cars at that price wil outrun the 360 for sure but….it’s a "Ferrrrrarrrrri".

[ckt227]

Mike at the Camaro plant does not really care about your $77,000 dollar ZL1 1LE. And Mike at the Ford plant does not care about your $90,000 Mustang GT500. And you guessed it, Mike at the Dodge plant does not care about your $80,000 Charger Hellcat. These 3 Mike's are there for a paycheck and keep management and the bean counters happy.

Assembly line workers are not concerned that anyone special ordered a car. Car starts the building process, between humans and robots, goes down the line, pieces and parts get put on, car assembled, car shipped (well, not as of late).

The only cars that get a complete inspection cost well over a $100,000, come from overseas and even they are not perfect.

[90503]

If you are unhappy about the fitment of panels, etc., on your car,....get busy! They are assembly line cars with assembly line quality, not hand built quality.

Consider the cars you see at the tv auctions...Resto-mods, frame off, rotisserie, etc...All are reassembled and re-fit better than factory new. It's just a matter of how much time do you want spend.

FWIW, I'm no body-shop expert, but I have replaced an item or two on several cars over the years and there is plenty of opportunity to get it right before making the final fastener tightenings. Try it yourself, you might actually make an improvement if it bothers you that much. Good luck.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ckt227

Mike at the Camaro plant does not really care about your $77,000 dollar ZL1 1LE. And Mike at the Ford plant does not care about your $90,000 Mustang GT500. And you guessed it, Mike at the Dodge plant does not care about your $80,000 Charger Hellcat. These 3 Mike's are there for a paycheck and keep management and the bean counters happy.

Assembly line workers are not concerned that anyone special ordered a car. Car starts the building process, between humans and robots, goes down the line, pieces and parts get put on, car assembled, car shipped (well, not as of late).

The only cars that get a complete inspection cost well over a $100,000, come from overseas and even they are not perfect.

Actually, not quite how it works. The "plant" cares very much. You would not believe the amount data gathered in the body shop of a modern assembly plant. I used to be able to go on line and check pretty much every car or truck body on any given day. Some operators may not care, true, but many do.

And if you compare GM cars from 15 years ago you'll notice a huge difference in gap and flush measurements. It used to be 5 mm, now it's down to 3.5 nominal gap in many if not all cases. The big issue remains the variation, something Toyota is wonderful at.

Now one big issue in this area is paint quality. A large gripe on Camaros here over the years. Getting a wonderful paint job is actually easy, it's just also very expensive. Audi for example splits the line going into the bake ovens into one of TWO ovens and slows the rate down for a longer/lower temp bake. Look at an Audi paint job sometime and how little orange peel you'll find.

The Camaro has the benefit of being in a Cadillac plant as well.

[Orange ss]

So I have both a 19 Gt mustang and SS Camaro. Unfortunately Neither is perfect and fit and finish.The obvious problem on the mustang is the front bumper cover by the left headlight .something I think happened in the molding process .really bad gap.Has a nice paint job, I have the orange fury .but its a thin factory paint job.for the most part the rest of the gaps in the body are ok ..it the under the liners and body seams that look horrible, sloppy from the factory and just painted over .also big issue I have with the mustang is the use of the Plastic push pins they use in the inner fender covers that are always getting loose and falling out at hi speeds ,unlike the camaro has much Fasteners. Ok now the issue I have with camaro is I have the crush orange, in alot of lights it kinda looks off in slightly different colors on the bumper covers front and back and the side rocker from the rest of the body .the other fit and finish issue I have with the camaro that I think the Mustang is way better is the door panels..the mustang definitely is a better more Secure fit and finish,it snaps toghter to the better and has two bolts at the bottom unlike the camaro and had trouble before getting the door open to get because the bottom Is plastic pushpins failed and the door panel popped open.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Yes, good points here. The value proposition is still very solid with what the big three give you for your money. Toyota does struggle with performance cars. I get it!

No question you’re asking for trouble with even a few year old Italian car. It’s just that one has to have that thought run through their head at least momentarily when spending that kind of money on a car. Like, a 360 Modena isn’t a bad car and you can get a nice one for that money. The GM cars at that price wil outrun the 360 for sure but….it’s a "Ferrrrrarrrrri".

Yep, Ferrari is gonna be special, but ultimately, they are about exclusivity and performance, and not about fit and finish.