The Future Of Muscle Cars (Electric Muscle Cars, etc.)

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

But that's also my point. That people are soo stuck in their ways and unwilling to change that they don't even consider the fact that they might like the EV versions better. Which is why I brought up the old school guys from the 70s and 80s who swore that fuel injection was the end of performance. They didn't even give it a chance. They just right off the bat started spouting nonsense as if it was fact and now decades later we all see how stupid that was.

It's the same thing now. I mean, come on man...the smell of spent fuel from the exhaust? That's what got us here in the first place. Those noxious harmful fumes. Sure you and like 3 other people might like it. But what happens when you and those who like it go revving up and down your block and exposing the entire neighborhood to your loud exhausts and exhaust fumes? On top of that, how do you know you'll even think twice about exhausts and fumes once you're in a car that is much faster than you can even hope to go right now? I'll be almost willing to bet you anything that once you feel how fast those cars will be you won't even think about exhausts and fumes. No worrying about noise violations or pissing off your neighbors or cops pulling you over or getting tickets. No worrying about DMV inspections and cats and emission stuff. None of that sounds bad to me. In fact our cars will seem like dinosaurs and will be slow and heavy by comparison. I doubt any of the hardcore Muscle Car guys will actually miss these gas powered engines when the time comes.

Ahhhh well I feel we are still missing some points here. The thing about people being stuck in their ways. I don't necessarily look at it like that. Certain things work, whether they were conceived in the past or present time. The concept of muscle cars, with a lightweight body stuffed with a large engine, for the most part worked during the sixties. Sure they were inefficient, but they were popular, beautiful, and sold in the masses. When the muscle car went away in the seventies, they were revered and talked about for a long while. Well look what happened? They resurged in the millenium with players such as Camaro, Challenger, Charger and Mustang. Take a good look at them, as the current examples are hardly antiques or out of date. The current "muscular" cars have as many advanced features as any typical vehicle made today, as well as being very powerful and good looking. The point is that the buying public voiced their opinion on what they liked and wanted from a car, and the manufacturers capitalized on these things and made profit. It had nothing to do with clinging to the past etc. People voiced their opinion on what they wanted, and as a result we were blessed with great cars that we enjoy today.

There are certain things we like about the current muscle cars as well, such as their loud exhausts, burn-outs on demand, etc. You can't blame noisy exhausts on the muscular cars either. How many times have you heard complaints from residents about those rice rockets and their 4 cyl. inspired fart can exhausts etc.????? Too many times. And why do owners of these rice rockets do the things that they do?? Because they also want to have fun with their cars, like the guys and gals did with their muscle cars back in the day. Again, nothing to do with clinging to the past etc. Just a basic need that people wanted....and achieved.

I'm not going into the point about the EV's and their pending entrance into the market becuase I spent a good amount of time on that point in my last post. The point that I want to emphasize is that the cars we enjoy today were conceived from wants and desires that consumers generated about cars they would like to own. Whether it came from past experiences or not is inmaterial. The buying public wanted their automobiles to be loud, run fast, have smelly exhausts, etc. Now whether we will continue to have cars like that in the future remains to be seen. However, you can't call the existence of today's muscular cars solely as a result of clinging to the past. Muscular cars exist today because they represent aspects of cars that are not seen or experienced with other vehicles, and that there are enough consumers in the market today to support their continued manufacturing, at least at this present time.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Before we get too excited about how fast the EV's are going to be, the fact is they will only be as fast as the manufacturers allow them to be. While GM has no control whatsoever over how fast my Camaro is, Tesla and every other EV manufacturer has complete control over every car they sell.

And the greenies who are pushing EV's on us could very well decide that while driving EV's is great, going fast is socially irresponsible and coerce the manufacturers to dial back the speed... for the good of us all (especially the children!), you know. Who could argue with that?

So it will be entirely possible... and not really that improbable... that you could wake up one morning to find your 2 second 0-60 EV now accelerates at a more socially acceptable and eco-friendly 7 seconds.

And there will be nothing you could do about it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by snizzle

These cars will be sterile. No sound. No manual. No driving (eventually). They'll be boring commodities. I realize there will be exceptions but by and large we are headed there. That said, most of us realize there are advantages. If you're willing to admit it, disadvantages. This is not twitter. We can meet in the middle?

Well I guess that just sucks for you. I'm sorry you're never going to be able to enjoy a car again. I extend my deepest condolences to you and I wish you all the best as you try to make it thru what will be some very horrible times. Maybe you can find some other hobby to enjoy.

Originally Posted by detamble13

Slow maybe but from what I've read an electric car with equivalent power is always heavier. Now anyways.

Who cares? Cars now are all hundreds of pounds heavier than they were 20 years ago anyway. The Camaro is super cramped and very small and has almost no space in it and even it weighs almost 4000 pounds. The Hellcat weighs 4400 pounds. Even the SS weighs like 3700 pounds. Now all of a sudden weight is some huge thing??

Originally Posted by detamble13

My concern is in affordable performance. The high performance versions of the EV's currently available are expensive and while I do think costs will come down I'm not sure by how much. More importantly are the early adopters of EV tech creating a market for the next generation of muscle cars? It seems most have made the switch for environmental reasons or as a status symbol. I didn't buy a V8 Camaro because it pollutes more in the same way people don't buy a cell phone because they're an advocate for child labour in China.

If all electric is the future I hope there is still room for a two door, sporty car that is affordable. But man I'll miss the manual transmission.

Affordable performance? Sorry but those words do not mix. The ZL1 is the cheapest of the higher level Muscle Cars and it is a $70K+ MSRP depending on options. Even without a bunch of add ons it is still over $60K. The Redeye is over $90K with decent options. The Super Stock is well over $90K. The GT500 is over $90K after markups and taxes/tags. The C8 after options is over $70K easily. The C8 Z06 will surely be $90K-ish. GTRs, Trackhawks, Raptors, TRXs, all are not even close to "affordable" by the majority of people in this hobby. Hell, I can afford those cars and I'm darn sure ain't paying those prices because I can't justify in my right mind spending that kind of money on a car.

Even if you buy a GT or SS and throw a blower on it and add some suspension and other stuff you're still talking about spending upwards of $50K after all is said and done...and not having a warranty. These are all very expensive cars as it is. EVs will be even faster. So why should they be cheap? However I'm pretty sure there will be different trims offering different levels of performance comparable to what we have to day and for around the same price. It won't be all or nothin.

[Outlaw77]

I had a 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS with a maggy blower, had a great time with it. Sold the Camaro for a 2019 Charger SRT, loved it. Bought a 2020 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT, like it as well. Then I drove a Tesla. Drove a 2019 Model S 100D and it was insane. Then drove a Model 3 performance and again it's fast. Both those Tesla's are so much faster than anything I have ever driven. I have never even looked at EV's before and I always thought I would be driving ICE's until I die. Not anymore. I wound up buying a 2020 Model 3 performance and its the best car I have ever driven and own. Handles better, its faster than most cars on the road, free over the air software updates that increase range and performance and best of all no more gas stations and oil changes. I installed a 240 volt charger in my garage so it's fully charged every morning at a fraction of my monthly fuel costs. For any doubters out there, just drive one. You can't argue with the ease of owning one of these things and the performance is a bonus at least IMO.

[snizzle]

Again, it's sort of like the auto versus manual discussion, I understand a modern AT can shift faster than I can, I don't care. Why not? Because I want the connection, the feel. In the same vein, yes, EVs can and will be faster in certain configurations. But the sound is gone, the connection is gone and for me the passion is gone.

There should be room for both. Give us the choice. Don't mandate what we're going to drive either directly by not offering what we want or indirectly by making it cost prohibitive through regulatory practices.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by snizzle

Again, it's sort of like the auto versus manual discussion, I understand a modern AT can shift faster than I can, I don't care. Why not? Because I want the connection, the feel. In the same vein, yes, EVs can and will be faster in certain configurations. But the sound is gone, the connection is gone and for me the passion is gone.

There should be room for both. Give us the choice. Don't mandate what we're going to drive either directly by not offering what we want or indirectly by making it cost prohibitive through regulatory practices.

So you're saying that if the sound and manual gear changing can be simulated to a point that you couldn't tell unless someone told you, you'd be okay with it?

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

So you're saying that if the sound and manual gear changing can be simulated to a point that you couldn't tell unless someone told you, you'd be okay with it?

It's not possible. You can't fake the entire experience collectively. For example, think they'll put in a dummy clutch and shifter and not tell anyone they're fake?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by lbls1

Ahhhh well I feel we are still missing some points here. The thing about people being stuck in their ways. I don't necessarily look at it like that. Certain things work, whether they were conceived in the past or present time. The concept of muscle cars, with a lightweight body stuffed with a large engine, for the most part worked during the sixties. Sure they were inefficient, but they were popular, beautiful, and sold in the masses. When the muscle car went away in the seventies, they were revered and talked about for a long while. Well look what happened? They resurged in the millenium with players such as Camaro, Challenger, Charger and Mustang. Take a good look at them, as the current examples are hardly antiques or out of date. The current "muscular" cars have as many advanced features as any typical vehicle made today, as well as being very powerful and good looking. The point is that the buying public voiced their opinion on what they liked and wanted from a car, and the manufacturers capitalized on these things and made profit. It had nothing to do with clinging to the past etc. People voiced their opinion on what they wanted, and as a result we were blessed with great cars that we enjoy today.

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the gearheads of the past and how they insisted that performance was ending because cars were moving to newer more efficient fueling methods. I drew a clear comparison to how people now are acting the same way. Do you want to go back to those slow-ass cars from the 70s that barely ran 13s and had no options and smelled like you spilled a gallon of gas out the car and smoked everywhere and were loud AF with a 3 sp trans and 4.56 gear ratios and a 900 CFM double-pumper pouring fuel thru some stupid tunnel ram IM that sucked in hot engine bay air?? Because that was what all the gearheads back then were all swearing up and down was gonna be missed. Those cars, as good as it probably was when there was nothing else, suck by today's standards. And if those gearheads had their way then right now we'd be getting our butts kicked by every 4 cyl turbo Honda with a fart can and some teenaged punk driving it.

Performance moves on. It has to evolve and adapt. Because if it doesn't then we'd be going nowhere fast. For all these people complaining about the switch to EV, I bet you any amount of money that in 20 years they'll all be mad when they're getting left behind by every punk with an Import EV. I don't care what any of these modern day "purists" have to say. Losing sucks. Being on the losing team sucks. Going slow sucks. Being in the lane next to someone who zips by you while you look like you're standing still absolutely sucks. I don't care how loud or awesome your car sounds. Or how rowing gears makes you feel. When some punk starts showing out and acting like an a-hole and pulls up revving at you and then proceeds to leave you and embarrasses you in front of onlookers, not one of these guys here will be saying "oh but my exhaust sounds good and I have a manual trans".

Now if you guys want slow cars and want to be on the losing side then be my guest. But when things change you can bet your bottom that I'll be jumping ship.

Originally Posted by lbls1

There are certain things we like about the current muscle cars as well, such as their loud exhausts, burn-outs on demand, etc. You can't blame noisy exhausts on the muscular cars either. How many times have you heard complaints from residents about those rice rockets and their 4 cyl. inspired fart can exhausts etc.????? Too many times. And why do owners of these rice rockets do the things that they do?? Because they also want to have fun with their cars, like the guys and gals did with their muscle cars back in the day. Again, nothing to do with clinging to the past etc. Just a basic need that people wanted....and achieved.

Whether it's the Imports doing it or the Domestics it doesn't matter. It's still an issue that the vast majority of the population is set against. Some of you can't even start your car at night because it is too loud. Some of you have to resort to illegally obtaining inspection stickers because you can't legitimately go to the DMV and pass. Some of you have to fraudulently trick your ECUs because of bypassing emmissions equipment. We all know this. Do you think the government cares if it's a Honda doing it or a Chevy? No. So how long did you guys think this was gonna last? LOL!! Not for nothing, but how many of us have committed federal offenses in the past year? LOL!! Which kinda brings up another point about how certain racing topics aren't allowed but I can make a post detailing in length how to eliminate federally mandated emission equipment, obtain an inspection sticker, trick the ECU, and use off-road equipment on public roads, hahaha!!

Originally Posted by lbls1

I'm not going into the point about the EV's and their pending entrance into the market becuase I spent a good amount of time on that point in my last post. The point that I want to emphasize is that the cars we enjoy today were conceived from wants and desires that consumers generated about cars they would like to own. Whether it came from past experiences or not is inmaterial. The buying public wanted their automobiles to be loud, run fast, have smelly exhausts, etc. Now whether we will continue to have cars like that in the future remains to be seen. However, you can't call the existence of today's muscular cars solely as a result of clinging to the past. Muscular cars exist today because they represent aspects of cars that are not seen or experienced with other vehicles, and that there are enough consumers in the market today to support their continued manufacturing, at least at this present time.

Well those days are fading fast and soon to be gone for good. People can either sulk and cry and complain or they can get with the times and enjoy the new tech. That's just the way it is. The number of people who are against the changes are dwindling. There are way more people for it. That's the reality.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by snizzle

Again, it's sort of like the auto versus manual discussion, I understand a modern AT can shift faster than I can, I don't care. Why not? Because I want the connection, the feel. In the same vein, yes, EVs can and will be faster in certain configurations. But the sound is gone, the connection is gone and for me the passion is gone.

There should be room for both. Give us the choice. Don't mandate what we're going to drive either directly by not offering what we want or indirectly by making it cost prohibitive through regulatory practices.

You sound like you actually think the manufacturers have a choice in the matter. LOL!! They don't. They couldn't care less what our dying breed thinks or has to say. They are trying to appeal to a larger market. After all, what are we gonna do? Not buy a new car when gas is no longer available? Walk everywhere? Ride bicycles? LOL!!

At some point it will be more and more costly for the manufacturer to produce these vehicles. Who do you think those costs will get passed on to? You think that when all resources and tech and designs are used to build EVs, they'll still be trying to appease the 22 remaining gas powered enthusiasts? LOL!! How much do you think it'll cost them to build a car for the dwindling number of people who want this? You're gonna be paying $470,000 for a gas powered car and $80 a gallon for 87 octane gas.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You sound like you actually think the manufacturers have a choice in the matter. LOL!! They don't.

That's exactly the problem. Automakers should be in the business of building what consumers want without intervention. They are being coerced into building EVs, not by market forces. There is no overwhelming public sentiment to build these vehicles. Should we celebrate that?

[detamble13]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Who cares? Cars now are all hundreds of pounds heavier than they were 20 years ago anyway. The Camaro is super cramped and very small and has almost no space in it and even it weighs almost 4000 pounds. The Hellcat weighs 4400 pounds. Even the SS weighs like 3700 pounds. Now all of a sudden weight is some huge thing??

Affordable performance? Sorry but those words do not mix.

As recently as 2016 GM cared about weight. The 6th Gen Camaro was intentionally made smaller and lighter. Lotus cares about weight and they make some reputable sports cars. Carbon fiber bits are used on top trim levels for weight reduction, carbon wheels to reduce unsprung mass. Come on you own some badass muscle cars you know this stuff. Weight can be masked today better than ever but any performance variant is better with less of it.

For some a BRZ offers plenty of performance and is very affordable. You listed the top trim level of the muscle cars and they are expensive. If you're waiting for a performance EV that will beat what you currently have it already exists, the Tesla Model S Plaid.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Nothing like an SS

Easy, keep my current car, problem solved! That's MY future muscle car! LOL!

Nope. It won't matter when they make it illegal to operate gas powered vehicles in your state. Or when you can't find a gas station. Or when you do find a gas station but it costs $30 a gallon because of supply and demand. Or the station is 70 miles away and only allows purchases up to 2 gallons or the station itself has no gas.

Originally Posted by snizzle

That's exactly the problem. Automakers should be in the business of building what consumers want without intervention. They are being coerced into building EVs, not by market forces. There is no overwhelming public sentiment to build these vehicles. Should we celebrate that?

When people realize that this is not the "free" country that they thought it was...maybe, just maybe, those have always been just empty words that have been repeated soo much that you believed it.

Face it, change is coming and there is nothing that can stop it. There is limited time to enjoy these vehicles. Enjoy them now and then get rid of them before you're left with a 2 ton paper weight that you can't drive and that nobody will buy from you. I figure there will be incentives and bonuses to trade them in for new EVs. And it'll probably be good enough offers that most people will jump to EVs right away. I personally will probably not buy another gas powered vehicle again. And I'll probably start getting rid of my current ones in a few years. Hey, it was good while it lasted.

[Windycity]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Nope. It won't matter when they make it illegal to operate gas powered vehicles in your state. Or when you can't find a gas station. Or when you do find a gas station but it costs $30 a gallon because of supply and demand. Or the station is 70 miles away and only allows purchases up to 2 gallons or the station itself has no gas.

When people realize that this is not the "free" country that they thought it was...maybe, just maybe, those have always been just empty words that have been repeated soo much that you believed it.

Face it, change is coming and there is nothing that can stop it. There is limited time to enjoy these vehicles. Enjoy them now and then get rid of them before you're left with a 2 ton paper weight that you can't drive and that nobody will buy from you. I figure there will be incentives and bonuses to trade them in for new EVs. And it'll probably be good enough offers that most people will jump to EVs right away. I personally will probably not buy another gas powered vehicle again. And I'll probably start getting rid of my current ones in a few years. Hey, it was good while it lasted.

Your being a little over dramatic

Gas will never be “illegal” anywhere near our lifetimes

Supply and demand could change availability but you will always be able to drive your vintage vehicle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by snizzle

That's exactly the problem. Automakers should be in the business of building what consumers want without intervention. They are being coerced into building EVs, not by market forces. There is no overwhelming public sentiment to build these vehicles. Should we celebrate that?

I thought this myself for a while. But listen to the soundtrack coming out of Detroit, Dearborn, and Auburn Hills. They are all promising BEV volume in excess of what any regulations currently on the books require. And beyond levels that states like California et al are saying for 2035. That doesn’t sound like they’re being forced. It sorta sounds like they are out in front of the legislation.