[302Blue]

Yesterday I was reading through some of the Colorado forums where they were discussing the carbon buildup issues from the direct injection on the LGX engine. With the Elite Catch Can thread currently being the most recently edited thread on here, I wanted to get your guys' input on some stuff.

I wanted to know what you guys are currently doing to fight against that buildup, if anything (with Chevy claiming the LGX has a 3x better cleaning system). Many of the threads I read through argued dangerous extremes with all different kinds of preventative measures. Some claimed cleaners such as CRC or Seafoam are too dangerous and will cause scoring when the carbon breaks off, some claimed catch cans at most only catch 15-30% of the blow-by that will cause the carbon buildup and therefore are pointless, some claimed the only synthetic oil with little to no buildup is running 10w-40 Amsoil and everything else sucks, and finally some simply claimed that the only truly effective method is walnut blasting and everything else is a half-measure.

So I guess here would be my main questions:

1. What preventative measures do you take? Chemical cleaners? Catch can? Specific brands or different weight synthetic oil? Getting a walnut blast every XXk miles? Nothing?

2. Is there any definitive proof that your method(s) have staved off or prevented carbon buildup at all? I.e. have you looked with a borescope at the valves and noticed differences before and after or on your valves vs someone else's? Or do you think some of these methods are just ridiculous, unnecessary, and may do more harm than good?

3. How worried should I be about this being a major issue that will kill the engine if I decide to buy after my lease? Am I stupid to not be investing in 10w-40 Amsoil/catch can/chemical cleaners or is the engine going to need walnut blasting no matter what to avoid failure, or is the LGX cleaning system really so good it may not need anything (even with track driving)? Some of those Colorado forums claimed valve seating issues in as little as 30k miles.

[PolynesianPowerhouse]

Originally Posted by 302Blue

Yesterday I was reading through some of the Colorado forums where they were discussing the carbon buildup issues from the direct injection on the LGX engine. With the Elite Catch Can thread currently being the most recently edited thread on here, I wanted to get your guys' input on some stuff.

I wanted to know what you guys are currently doing to fight against that buildup, if anything (with Chevy claiming the LGX has a 3x better cleaning system). Many of the threads I read through argued dangerous extremes with all different kinds of preventative measures. Some claimed cleaners such as CRC or Seafoam are too dangerous and will cause scoring when the carbon breaks off, some claimed catch cans at most only catch 15-30% of the blow-by that will cause the carbon buildup and therefore are pointless, some claimed the only synthetic oil with little to no buildup is running 10w-40 Amsoil and everything else sucks, and finally some simply claimed that the only truly effective method is walnut blasting and everything else is a half-measure.

So I guess here would be my main questions:

1. What preventative measures do you take? Chemical cleaners? Catch can? Specific brands or different weight synthetic oil? Getting a walnut blast every XXk miles? Nothing?

2. Is there any definitive proof that your method(s) have staved off or prevented carbon buildup at all? I.e. have you looked with a borescope at the valves and noticed differences before and after or on your valves vs someone else's? Or do you think some of these methods are just ridiculous, unnecessary, and may do more harm than good?

3. How worried should I be about this being a major issue that will kill the engine if I decide to buy after my lease? Am I stupid to not be investing in 10w-40 Amsoil/catch can/chemical cleaners or is the engine going to need walnut blasting no matter what to avoid failure, or is the LGX cleaning system really so good it may not need anything (even with track driving)? Some of those Colorado forums claimed valve seating issues in as little as 30k miles.

On some of the other platforms, the build up is insane. I know exactly what you are talking about. I read other forums just to see if there's something I or we here are missing. matter of fact, I just read ALL 31 pages of the RB 2 piece rotor review on Camaro5 last night, which took me half of Fast and Furious 8 with all the links to other pages and increment installments of results and issues. there's a lot to learn out there.

So far, I can tell you what I've done, as even on here methods preferences differ.

1) to answer this, I run BND Automotive Quantum Blue oils in all areas of the car. I also get an oil analysis done per oil change to make sure the TBN is good and no abnormal wear is occurring. others have their own favorites. this is just what I run and its worked for me over the last 3 cars.

also to note, I have used the CRC DI valve cleaner in the 2013 Camaro which I owned for 2 years before trading that in on the 2016 Camaro that will be 2 years in May roughly. so truthfully I've prob used at least 5 cans total on both cars.

and the catch cans I have used and currently use:

to start, I added a catch can. it was the mishimoto, and NO, they do NOT make a kit for the V6 yet, just the 4 cylinder turbo and the SS models. I basically started with a universal compact can and just ran it inline with the dirty side.

catching was a small bit per oil change.

since then, I decided to try something different and went with an Elite E2-X can with a Clean Side Separator. this addresses not just the dirty side, but also the front clean side of the system. and since i had both cans, I decided to do a little testing. I was told this or that was and wasn't gonna happen, however in the end, I'm finding everything has been the exact opposite of what I was told. Sometimes you simply have to try something and see if It works rather than just hearsay. life lesson I learned back in high school.

in short, I have been running both catch cans with the dirty side going into the mishimoto first, and then into the Elite last. wanted to see how much got past the first one and into the second one. almost EVERY catch can I've used... (Apex, Billet Tech on the charger, Elite) has the inlet go through a media that condenses blowby vapors through the media first then out the outlet. the mishimoto has the inlet blow on a small tab, and then go to the bottom, but then the bronze filter is located at the end before exit.

so my goal was to see what was getting past one, if any, and then if the second can was catching it. turns out, I was right. the Elite can was catching DOUBLE the volume of what the Mishimoto was missing.

First Capture:
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showpo...81&postcount=1

Second Capture:
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showpo...85&postcount=8

Since then, I've swapped the positions to where Elite is 1st inline and then the mishimoto is 2nd. was gonna rush the results, but figured to just wait till the next oil change. I'm about 3000 miles out. will prob do it before the AutoX season and drag tracks open this year. fresh oil for a fresh start of the season.



2) The only method I've used was removing the intake manifold and looking at the valves. the build up wasn't bad at all. I've done the CRC treatment once or twice on this car so far, and I've ran Amsoil PI injector cleaner, and usually run BND Automotive Aces 4 for the injectors. for those who are against this and that, the owners manual clearly states that you can use injector cleaner from time to time. Gas locally I usually run Shell or Sunoco top teir. Carrol fuels or Royal Farms/Wawa on the quick.

the walnut blasting is also a good method. I don't have much experience with it. one can also close the valves per given cylinder and use the manual brush method, where you soak the valves, and then brush em as you would brush your teeth when using mouthwash. there's many effective ways of going about it, but if your options are limited, go with what works for you. I haven't found any shops that are known for working on V6's locally. most of the main ones pushed on the forums are in FL, TX, and CA from what I've seen.


3) I'd always recommend anyone use decent oils you trust, and back it up with a 20$ oil analysis (ALS Tribology, Blackstone, etc)....mainly if you plan to keep the car long term. theres a lot of people that will say basically don't do anything... but most of what I've read is they have the car for 2-4 years and trade it in...someone elses problem. me, I still have my 1999 cavalier that I bought with 16 miles on it oct 31 1998 while in college, and I traded in my charger for the Camaro, but that was bought with 21K on it and in 6 years it had 244,033 miles when I traded it in. the 2013 Camaro was bought with 31k on it and traded it in at 105,000 miles. so I put miles on cars and keep them far longer than many. so I do what works for me and I know that works. if I try something and it doesn't work, then its time to change what I'm trying to something that does work.

if you plan to keep the car, i'd start with:

1) quality oils
2) quality fuels
3) catch can from Elite...as it the only company currently that makes a full kit, all hoses clamps, instructions, etc. needed. so you're not just rigging something up.
4) just keep an eye on things. all cars run differently even if the same model and make. I've seen some people snap axels on cars 3 weeks old, and others make it through 2 years of drag racing and over 200 passes...axles good. some have had transmission shudder issues on the A8, myself included, and others haven't had a single issue.

so as said, just keep an eye on it. perhaps get a bore scope and check after 15-20K. or sooner/later. harbor freight has em I know, as I just got another jack on sat, and happened to see some https://www.harborfreight.com/digita...era-61839.html 70$ investment...

I personally wouldn't worry, or leave this issue to put you off from having/keeping this car. its nothing short of amazing. I've done just over 50K in less than 2 years now and am thoroughly impressed in comparison to my suspension heavy modded 5th gen I had.

just don't be afraid to try new stuff that you aren't used to, and keep up on the maintainence.

[DirectTo]

I’m on an iPad so my reply will be nothing compared to the Polynesian Powerhouse above me, and he is pretty much our resident expert on catch cans with multiple installs, setups, and a lot of miles of day to day driving plus track work.

I came from a Canyon before and didn’t honestly give it much thought as a day to day driver, and if that’s all my Camaro was I’d probably feel the same way with a warranty and ‘normal’ driving.

However, these are meant to be performance cars, and the majority of blow by happens at high power settings when you’re really using the engine. Given that, it seems like a no brainer to add one to any LGX that’s going to see aggressive use.

I went with the Elite option (and posted a recent thread) and was not particularly happy with the lack of directions from them, but with some additional stuff I picked up locally got it set up how I wanted. To me, as I prep to track the car, it’s cheap insurance. If it catches anything, it’s better than nothing, and it can’t really hurt the car given what it does. Again, to me, no brainer.

Your mileage may vary and all that.

[PolynesianPowerhouse]

Originally Posted by DirectTo

I’m on an iPad so my reply will be nothing compared to the Polynesian Powerhouse above me, and he is pretty much our resident expert on catch cans with multiple installs, setups, and a lot of miles of day to day driving plus track work.

I came from a Canyon before and didn’t honestly give it much thought as a day to day driver, and if that’s all my Camaro was I’d probably feel the same way with a warranty and ‘normal’ driving.

However, these are meant to be performance cars, and the majority of blow by happens at high power settings when you’re really using the engine. Given that, it seems like a no brainer to add one to any LGX that’s going to see aggressive use.

I went with the Elite option (and posted a recent thread) and was not particularly happy with the lack of directions from them, but with some additional stuff I picked up locally got it set up how I wanted. To me, as I prep to track the car, it’s cheap insurance. If it catches anything, it’s better than nothing, and it can’t really hurt the car given what it does. Again, to me, no brainer.

Your mileage may vary and all that.

Def appreciate the words, but i am far from being an expert. just another forum member among members.

Always room to learn more, and always willing to try new things past the norms to see if theres change given it doesnt hurt the car.

They always emphasize in wrestling, "once you feel you know everything and cant learn anymore, its time to hang up the boots"

That's life advice you can apply to anything

[302Blue]

Originally Posted by PolynesianPowerhouse

On some of the other platforms, the build up is insane. I know exactly what you are talking about. I read other forums just to see if there's something I or we here are missing. matter of fact, I just read ALL 31 pages of the RB 2 piece rotor review on Camaro5 last night, which took me half of Fast and Furious 8 with all the links to other pages and increment installments of results and issues. there's a lot to learn out there.

So far, I can tell you what I've done, as even on here methods preferences differ.

1) to answer this, I run BND Automotive Quantum Blue oils in all areas of the car. I also get an oil analysis done per oil change to make sure the TBN is good and no abnormal wear is occurring. others have their own favorites. this is just what I run and its worked for me over the last 3 cars.

also to note, I have used the CRC DI valve cleaner in the 2013 Camaro which I owned for 2 years before trading that in on the 2016 Camaro that will be 2 years in May roughly. so truthfully I've prob used at least 5 cans total on both cars.

and the catch cans I have used and currently use:

to start, I added a catch can. it was the mishimoto, and NO, they do NOT make a kit for the V6 yet, just the 4 cylinder turbo and the SS models. I basically started with a universal compact can and just ran it inline with the dirty side.

catching was a small bit per oil change.

since then, I decided to try something different and went with an Elite E2-X can with a Clean Side Separator. this addresses not just the dirty side, but also the front clean side of the system. and since i had both cans, I decided to do a little testing. I was told this or that was and wasn't gonna happen, however in the end, I'm finding everything has been the exact opposite of what I was told. Sometimes you simply have to try something and see if It works rather than just hearsay. life lesson I learned back in high school.

in short, I have been running both catch cans with the dirty side going into the mishimoto first, and then into the Elite last. wanted to see how much got past the first one and into the second one. almost EVERY catch can I've used... (Apex, Billet Tech on the charger, Elite) has the inlet go through a media that condenses blowby vapors through the media first then out the outlet. the mishimoto has the inlet blow on a small tab, and then go to the bottom, but then the bronze filter is located at the end before exit.

so my goal was to see what was getting past one, if any, and then if the second can was catching it. turns out, I was right. the Elite can was catching DOUBLE the volume of what the Mishimoto was missing.

First Capture:
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showpo...81&postcount=1

Second Capture:
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showpo...85&postcount=8

Since then, I've swapped the positions to where Elite is 1st inline and then the mishimoto is 2nd. was gonna rush the results, but figured to just wait till the next oil change. I'm about 3000 miles out. will prob do it before the AutoX season and drag tracks open this year. fresh oil for a fresh start of the season.



2) The only method I've used was removing the intake manifold and looking at the valves. the build up wasn't bad at all. I've done the CRC treatment once or twice on this car so far, and I've ran Amsoil PI injector cleaner, and usually run BND Automotive Aces 4 for the injectors. for those who are against this and that, the owners manual clearly states that you can use injector cleaner from time to time. Gas locally I usually run Shell or Sunoco top teir. Carrol fuels or Royal Farms/Wawa on the quick.

the walnut blasting is also a good method. I don't have much experience with it. one can also close the valves per given cylinder and use the manual brush method, where you soak the valves, and then brush em as you would brush your teeth when using mouthwash. there's many effective ways of going about it, but if your options are limited, go with what works for you. I haven't found any shops that are known for working on V6's locally. most of the main ones pushed on the forums are in FL, TX, and CA from what I've seen.


3) I'd always recommend anyone use decent oils you trust, and back it up with a 20$ oil analysis (ALS Tribology, Blackstone, etc)....mainly if you plan to keep the car long term. theres a lot of people that will say basically don't do anything... but most of what I've read is they have the car for 2-4 years and trade it in...someone elses problem. me, I still have my 1999 cavalier that I bought with 16 miles on it oct 31 1998 while in college, and I traded in my charger for the Camaro, but that was bought with 21K on it and in 6 years it had 244,033 miles when I traded it in. the 2013 Camaro was bought with 31k on it and traded it in at 105,000 miles. so I put miles on cars and keep them far longer than many. so I do what works for me and I know that works. if I try something and it doesn't work, then its time to change what I'm trying to something that does work.

if you plan to keep the car, i'd start with:

1) quality oils
2) quality fuels
3) catch can from Elite...as it the only company currently that makes a full kit, all hoses clamps, instructions, etc. needed. so you're not just rigging something up.
4) just keep an eye on things. all cars run differently even if the same model and make. I've seen some people snap axels on cars 3 weeks old, and others make it through 2 years of drag racing and over 200 passes...axles good. some have had transmission shudder issues on the A8, myself included, and others haven't had a single issue.

so as said, just keep an eye on it. perhaps get a bore scope and check after 15-20K. or sooner/later. harbor freight has em I know, as I just got another jack on sat, and happened to see some https://www.harborfreight.com/digita...era-61839.html 70$ investment...

I personally wouldn't worry, or leave this issue to put you off from having/keeping this car. its nothing short of amazing. I've done just over 50K in less than 2 years now and am thoroughly impressed in comparison to my suspension heavy modded 5th gen I had.

just don't be afraid to try new stuff that you aren't used to, and keep up on the maintainence.

Wow. I really appreciate it Polynesian and DirectTo, I have no idea how you guys find the time to respond to everything on here so quickly. Seeing as I am definitely going to be owning this long-term, all of this is super helpful. So seems like I will have to look into installing the Elite Catch Can next time I do my service.

Also since I'm already at the auto parts store every now and again for things like fuel injector additives or whatever, I'll grab some DI Valve Cleaner as well. If you've got clean valves at 50k miles and no problems, you must be doing something right.

I did want to ask about the QuantumBlue oil, which I've never even heard of until now. Where are you able to get that? Or is it direct to customer? I see on their website that they don't have 5w-30, do you end up running a different weight? If it matters I've always just used Mobil1 5w-30, and switched it out for 5w-40 for the track days like the manual recommends.

[Elite Engineering]

Thanks Polynesian Powerhouse, and yes, you have taken more time to understand all of this than anyone else to date and your testing is what we encourage as most Catch Cans only trap from 15-30% as you saw. Our Patented internal design traps 95% plus and no other design comes close to date.

A few things to add. First, many get confused on what system to order. For a GDI engine the E2-X and E2 systems with cleanside is what you want in the dual valve configuration. Our “Standard” Elite Catch Can was designed for the older Port Injection engines, and is still more effective than 99% of the cans out there no matter the price.

As for engine running solvent based cleaning, these are safe for port injection engines with the "soft" carbon, but if you have over 15k miles, we do NOT recommend for a GDI engine due to the hard crystalline structure these bake into on a GDI engine, and yes, GM has made great strides in the internal oil separation, but understand, and this is important! They have deleted the "positive" function of the PCV system for the LGX in order to reduce the coking issue, and this sacrifices engine life by leaving much of the contaminants in the engine to accumulate and mix with the oil. Our system like Nui installed adds that function back in, and that is providing full time evacuation VS part time.

Oil, if you pour a small amount of syn blend into a pan and burn it, it leaves sludge and residue. now do the same with a full synthetic oil and you will find almost no residue left once burned. This directly relates to the severity of coking. We examine these engines at different mileage and oils used, and the impact is substantial. So as long as it is a top full synthetic, you will do well. Using too much additives in the tank can shorten injector life. So do as Nui advises. Every now and then only.

As for the weight, this is also critical. The ONLY reason your owner’s manual states such thin oils is to meet CAFE fuel economy standards imposed on all Automakers. ALL GDI engines experience many times the raw fuel washdown past the rings due to the intense pressure the fuel is introduced (2,000-3,000 PSI) and the high compression ratio, 11.5:1 (another reason to ONLY use 93 octane)). So, a 5w40 or 50 will protect that engine much better by being resistant to viscosity loss due to the fuel dilution, and of course, our dual valve systems will remove much of that as well before it reaches your oil.

Other than that, good advice above. And it is for any GDI engine. This technology was forced upon the automakers, and is far from perfected, and it may never be it appears.

[Kenny Camaro]

Great write up Nui ! Lots of info and testing methods. Really likes your two can test. Very impressive!. I would also like to bring up the Tracy Lewis model as an effective catch can system. I have been running an Elite x-2 catch can since last Year. I did a walnut blasting cleaning in April. I plan on taking my intake manifold off for some additional porting and plan to check out how my valves are looking after a thorough cleaning and running an e-2 can with no cleanside, will post here and in C-5.

[Rob99]

I don't see a catch for the 2016+ LGX, only the Elite part# CSS6 clean side separator, am I correct?
Thanks, Rob.

[Elite Engineering]

Originally Posted by Rob99

I don't see a catch for the 2016+ LGX, only the Elite part# CSS6 clean side separator, am I correct?
Thanks, Rob.

Hi Rob,

It's listed on our website in both the E2 and E2-X Catch Cans:

http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/e2-catch-can/

http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/e2-x-catch-cans/

[Evil-Bee-NH]

Mishimoto Catch Cans work great on the I4s I had an elite on my old 2011 V6 Camaro totally worth it bit they don't have a working setup for the I4 it was extensively tested by an old vendor on here and they don't have the hose routing for the I4.

[Rob99]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Hi Rob,

It's listed on our website in both the E2 and E2-X Catch Cans:

http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/e2-catch-can/

http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/e2-x-catch-cans/

ok thanks.

[302Blue]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Hi Rob,

It's listed on our website in both the E2 and E2-X Catch Cans:

http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/e2-catch-can/

http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/e2-x-catch-cans/

So looking at them, the main difference appears to be better construction and the including of a drain plug on the e2-X. Is that correct?

[Elite Engineering]

Originally Posted by 302Blue

So looking at them, the main difference appears to be better construction and the including of a drain plug on the e2-X. Is that correct?

Yes, they both perform better than anything else on the market, but the E2-X has a bottom ball valve drain, and the E2 has a screw off bottom for emptying. They can both be fully disassembled if needed.

[cellsafemode]

If you're concerned with buildup, just pop off your intake bridge from the throttle body. Run some paper towel or finger around the inside of the plastic and visually inspect the throttle body. If you see a decent amount of black on the throttle body or any oil from inside the intake bridge ...then you would greatly benefit from a catch can.

If you dont, you can still benefit from a catch can, since how dirty your intake gets is very dependent on the changing driving conditions you put the car thru.

Either way, a good maintenance procedure for direct injected engines is to throw a can of injector cleaner into the intake every oil change (just before the oil change).

If you do that, you should be golden.