[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by magGT

According to the evidence, yes. It doesnt matter if it feels like a boat or weighs more. The facts are the facts. It is tested to be pretty close in performance to the rest of the muscle cars. and yes its not a small difference but i wouldn't put 1 sec in a different league. why would you?

I would because the simple fact is the new gen Mustang PP is almost 2 secs slower around the same track than the outgoing 1LE. Meanwhile the new base SS is less than half a sec slower that the outgoing 1LE. That's quite a jump in performance. A jump the new Mustang even with the PP did not even come close to. It's barely a sec faster than it's solid axle predecessor. In terms of all around performance, the new Mustang did not significantly improve on it's predecessor. The same can't be said for the 6th gen. It clearly is better in all performance metrics than the 5th gen. But don't take my word for it. MT is the one who said these cars really don't compete against each other anymore. That's why they put it up against an M4. You don't have to agree, but it's your opinion vs. theirs.

[magGT]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I would because the simple fact is the new gen Mustang PP is almost 2 secs slower around the same track than the outgoing 1LE. Meanwhile the new base SS is less than half a sec slower that the outgoing 1LE. That's quite a jump in performance. A jump the new Mustang even with the PP did not even come close to. It's barely a sec faster than it's solid axle predecessor. In terms of all around performance, the new Mustang did not significantly improve on it's predecessor. The same can't be said for the 6th gen. It clearly is better in all performance metrics than the 5th gen. But don't take my word for it. MT is the one who said these cars really don't compete against each other anymore. That's why they put it up against an M4. You don't have to agree, but it's your opinion vs. theirs.

even if the jump wasnt that big, it is still within a second and therefore still competitive. its not like its 4 seconds behind or something

and
Lol coming from the motortrend that saw that the camaro v6 was losing to the mustang so they literally changed its tires so it can be competitive.

If they dont reek of camaro bias i dont know what does.

Seriously. show me another "magazine" that would ever do something like that! lmao

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by magGT

even if the jump wasnt that big, it is still within a second and therefore still competitive. its not like its 4 seconds behind or something

and
Lol coming from the motortrend that saw that the camaro v6 was losing to the mustang so they literally changed its tires so it can be competitive.

If they dont reek of camaro bias i dont know what does.

Seriously. show me another "magazine" that would ever do something like that! lmao

Competitive is a relative term. But the 6th gen and the M4 are much much closer than the new Mustang is to the M4, in every category. That's when you have left "pony car" league and joined the high end sports car segment which has been dominated for years by BMW.

LOL you show your true fanboy colors now. Was it bias when they picked the one trick pony Hellcat over the ZL1? Especially when they made the "timed part" on a relatively straight road with gentle curves and the ZL1 despite being short almost 200hp still was within tenths of a second to the time the Hellcat posted? Perhaps you should actually watch the H2H with Camaro vs. M4. They made several comments just for people such as yourself. They are not bias, they are opinionated. Everyone can have an opinion right? Or is just yours that matters?

More opinions:

"After two days driving over the relief left behind by the Great Buzzard, there's no doubt the Camaro, with its Cadillac platform and Corvette engine, is the thoroughbred of its class. We can't believe it. The Camaro is almost too composed. The balance is sublime. It's refined and exciting. Has this once fat lout of a car become a bona fide sports car?

Did that just happen?

It happened."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...rd-mustang-gt/

"The steering is precise with a hint of feedback; the chassis tuning is near perfect, and the grip is incredible."

Are you surprised? You shouldn’t be. The Cadillac ATS, after all, has won accolades for its handling prowess, not just from TTAC but from the industry in general. I never thought it would be possible to say this, but now and then the Camaro, with a 6.2-liter V8 up front, makes the BMW M4 feel heavy and lethargic.

Perhaps more interesting than the pony-war comparison is the BMW comparison. The last generation of Camaro SS could, of course, be compared to the M3 coupe of the time, but the comparisons always read like this: the Camaro delivers 95 percent of the performance, 80 percent of the handling ability and 70 percent of the finesse for half the price. This SS is an entirely different animal, and delivers equal performance, equal handling ability and superior finesse for half the price.

If you’re just interested in driving dynamics, the Camaro SS is simply the better car. If you’re interested in luxury, the closely related ATS-V is my top pick, but the turbo engine is just not as engaging as the 6.2-liter V8.

The 2016 Camaro has restored my faith in American performance for the masses. We all knew a brand like Cadillac could craft a BMW M4 competitor if they applied themselves, but from Chevy it’s a game changer. The Camaro SS is of course just the beginning. Soon we will see a Camaro ZL1, which is apparently what happens when you blend a 2016 Camaro with a touch of bat-shit-crazy. Count me in."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...te-crossbreed/


"And then there’s the steering, which feels dense yet at the same time micrometer precise. Its standard Brembo brakes have more bite than an alligator and the chassis, well, it’s a masterpiece. Who needs a BMW M4 coupe when you can have all this for around 42 grand, with nicer styling and likely lower ownership costs?"

http://www.autoguide.com/manufacture...aro-1ss-review



Obviously MT isn't the only one who makes comparisons between the 6th gen and the M4.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by magGT

Lol coming from the motortrend that saw that the camaro v6 was losing to the mustang so they literally changed its tires so it can be competitive.

Oh and the EB was PP car with summer tires. The LT has all seasons and none of the "performance items" the EB had. Clearly tires make a huge difference if that's all they changed it and it posted a better time. Not a stock to stock comparison, but I doubt we will ever see the real test, a 1LE V6 vs EB PP. Ford will probably decline to send that car. They are still reeling from EB cars running slower than they did at launch and the fact a FWD VW GTI with 200hp bested their lap time at VIR during the Lightning Lap.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by magGT

The times have been posted. The mustang is about a second slower around Willow springs. so no, not really a whole new league lol. I mean sure its faster but it has better tires as well. the pirellies are garbage even compared to the runflats, they are still eagle F1's

Below is what I've learn from Mustang posts over the past 8 months

The GT is for the budget V8 buyer that doesn't care about performance.

The GT PP is for the budget buyer that wants "street performance" at a low price but also doesn't care about performance.

Performance minded GT buyers can visit the parts department to bridge (?) the gap with the SS.
- $2,400 stage 3 upgrade (M-9452-M8).
- $1,500 handling package (M-FR3A-M8)
Assembly not included. Effectiveness unknown. Still suffers from poor tires.?.?

The, now discontinued, base $49.9k GT350 wasn't really a track car. It was a headline
The, now base, $56,6k GT350TP may be outgunned by the $6,500 1LE option.
The GT350R has been allowed very little review.

Summary: All the little trains that couldn't, quote the stats of those that could.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Competitive is a relative term. But the 6th gen and the M4 are much much closer than the new Mustang is to the M4, in every category. That's when you have left "pony car" league and joined the high end sports car segment which has been dominated for years by BMW.

Interesting, if that's all it takes to leave the "pony car" league...then the mustang did it back in 2011.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/m...m3-comparison/

Until they dumb down the styling, stop adversting through Transformer movies and vastly improve interior room and cargo space, the Camaro will never be in the same "league" as the Bimmer.

In a few years, the Mustang will be back on top...and a few years later the Camaro will too. That's what competition does.

On a side note, a vast majority of owners given the two vehicles around the track would have no perception on which one is faster, nor do they care. The people who frequent these forums are the exception, not the rule.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Interesting, if that's all it takes to leave the "pony car" league...then the mustang did it back in 2011.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/m...m3-comparison/

Until they dumb down the styling, stop adversting through Transformer movies and vastly improve interior room and cargo space, the Camaro will never be in the same "league" as the Bimmer.

In a few years, the Mustang will be back on top...and a few years later the Camaro will too. That's what competition does.

On a side note, a vast majority of owners given the two vehicles around the track would have no perception on which one is faster, nor do they care. The people who frequent these forums are the exception, not the rule.

And it lost. And where has the performance of it gone since 5 years ago? The BMW improved by over 4 secs from that gen M3. The Mustang, 3 and half secs. Not really keeping pace is it? And the margin between it now and the M4 is wider than it was then. That's not counting the fact the acceleration, braking, skipad, and figure 8 times for the current Mustang are not as competitive as it was in '11. So in '11 the Mustang was close, but has now taken a step backward compared to the M4.

If Camaro doesn't keep pace next gen, I'll feel the same way about it as I do about the current gen Mustang, a step backward.

Personally I don't want to see either car in the "league" with BMW. BMW has lost it's way. Where before few challengers could match, now someone is making an M-killer every year. Most people buying them now are status symbol seekers or old people who use to buy Toyotas and Hondas. They are not the "drivers car" anymore. That was the point MT was trying to make. Near identical performance to the Camaro, much higher cost, and worse driving dynamics. The Mustang lost in '11 due to it's driving dynamics. It was close but just hadn't caught up to BMW. The Camaro has surpassed BMW in that sense. Everyone who drives an Alpha chassis car agrees. That driver's car segment has had the most defection in BMW since the introduction of the F30 cars. It will continue as well.

I agree completely that things will likely keep flip flopping. Competition is good. As far as people noticing which one is faster, considering the majority of sales in both cars are the non-performance models, you are correct. Course that's not what this thread is about. People can't use 700hp on the street either, but they do want it. But you can certainly tell one car has better driving dynamics than another quickly, if you aren't just driving to Starbucks. And having driven a Scat Pack, Mustang GT, and my Camaro....I can tell immediately which one is a better driver's car. That doesn't mean the others are terrible however.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And it lost. And where has the performance of it gone since 5 years ago? The BMW improved by over 4 secs from that gen M3. The Mustang, 3 and half secs. Not really keeping pace is it? And the margin between it now and the M4 is wider than it was then. That's not counting the fact the acceleration, braking, skipad, and figure 8 times for the current Mustang are not as competitive as it was in '11. So in '11 the Mustang was close, but has now taken a step backward compared to the M4.

If Camaro doesn't keep pace next gen, I'll feel the same way about it as I do about the current gen Mustang, a step backward.

Personally I don't want to see either car in the "league" with BMW. BMW has lost it's way. Where before few challengers could match, now someone is making an M-killer every year. Most people buying them now are status symbol seekers or old people who use to buy Toyotas and Hondas. They are not the "drivers car" anymore. That was the point MT was trying to make. Near identical performance to the Camaro, much higher cost, and worse driving dynamics. The Mustang lost in '11 due to it's driving dynamics. It was close but just hadn't caught up to BMW. The Camaro has surpassed BMW in that sense. Everyone who drives an Alpha chassis car agrees. That driver's car segment has had the most defection in BMW since the introduction of the F30 cars. It will continue as well.

I agree completely that things will likely keep flip flopping. Competition is good. As far as people noticing which one is faster, considering the majority of sales in both cars are the non-performance models, you are correct. Course that's not what this thread is about. People can't use 700hp on the street either, but they do want it. But you can certainly tell one car has better driving dynamics than another quickly, if you aren't just driving to Starbucks. And having driven a Scat Pack, Mustang GT, and my Camaro....I can tell immediately which one is a better driver's car. That doesn't mean the others are terrible however.

Did you read the entire article? The writer himself turned faster laps in the Mustang than the BMW. It wasn't until Randy took the wheel where the BMW turned in time .09 seconds faster. The two cars were so evenly matched, it was ridiculous. This does nothing but highlight my previous post.

A) Track times to not necessitate vehicles being in the same class. A vast majority of people looking to purchase BMW Ms are not crosshoping vehicles. Are they close in performance? Yes. So was the 2011 mustang. I could find a cheap used foxbody that would spank them both...that doesn't make it the same class.

B) The average Joe isn't able to tell the difference in power and performance between the current Mustang and Camaro....especially where it matters...in the 4cyl and 6cyl market.

I'll make another comment. GM should do away with trolling Camaro forums for input on how to design their vehicles. You are always looking to increase sales and market segment...why in the hell would you ask those who have already bought the car what they like about it? They should be trolling the competitors forums, trying to find out why they chose car A over car B. If they would do so, they would realize that while track times sell magazines, price, looks and ergonomics sell cars.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Did you read the entire article? The writer himself turned faster laps in the Mustang than the BMW. It wasn't until Randy took the wheel where the BMW turned in time .09 seconds faster. The two cars were so evenly matched, it was ridiculous. This does nothing but highlight my previous post.

A) Track times to not necessitate vehicles being in the same class. A vast majority of people looking to purchase BMW Ms are not crosshoping vehicles. Are they close in performance? Yes. So was the 2011 mustang. I could find a cheap used foxbody that would spank them both...that doesn't make it the same class.

B) The average Joe isn't able to tell the difference in power and performance between the current Mustang and Camaro....especially where it matters...in the 4cyl and 6cyl market.

I'll make another comment. GM should do away with trolling Camaro forums for input on how to design their vehicles. You are always looking to increase sales and market segment...why in the hell would you ask those who have already bought the car what they like about it? They should be trolling the competitors forums, trying to find out why they chose car A over car B. If they would do so, they would realize that while track times sell magazines, price, looks and ergonomics sell cars.

And it still lost. Did you read why? The Camaro was picked over the M4. It won. Obviously to your point there is more to it than track times, which is why the Mustang lost then and Camaro won now. You haven't said anything I didn't already say. And since when does buying a car and modifying it mean anything about the auto media doing a comparison review between two cars? The whole point of H2H is to put "new" cars that are worth comparing up against each other. They don't review cars you can buy and modify up against one that is stock.

I already agreed with your second point. Nothing more to say but not really related to this thread either.

As for you last statement. I tend to agree. Seems like you would spend more time asking why people didn't buy a Camaro last generation. Which GM solved several of the reasons I didn't buy a 5th gen, but not all. But at the same time don't make out like Ford doesn't ask Mustang owners either. They went to car shows around the country asking what people wanted in the new Mustang. I just don't think they asked a "select few" like GM does here. Again unrelated to the thread. You can climb off the soapbox.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

I would because the simple fact is the new gen Mustang PP is almost 2 secs slower around the same track than the outgoing 1LE. Meanwhile the new base SS is less than half a sec slower that the outgoing 1LE. That's quite a jump in performance. A jump the new Mustang even with the PP did not even come close to. It's barely a sec faster than it's solid axle predecessor. In terms of all around performance, the new Mustang did not significantly improve on it's predecessor. The same can't be said for the 6th gen. It clearly is better in all performance metrics than the 5th gen. But don't take my word for it. MT is the one who said these cars really don't compete against each other anymore. That's why they put it up against an M4. You don't have to agree, but it's your opinion vs. theirs.

I beg to differ in that statement. I've raced in S197's for a few years and was able to get in an EB PP and a GT, both stock, and race them. The S550 is an improvement over the S197 in track performance (excluding drag racing). I know of examples where stock S550 GT PP cars had equal or better times than modified S197 (a Boss included).

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by magGT

The times have been posted. The mustang is about a second slower around Willow springs. so no, not really a whole new league lol. I mean sure its faster but it has better tires as well. the pirellies are garbage even compared to the runflats, they are still eagle F1's

FYI, if you track a full second is a HUGE gap. Even more so on a smaller track. In most classes the winning car and the last place car won't even have a one second spread...

When I run the top ten are usually separated by maybe two to three tenths at most.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And it still lost. Did you read why? The Camaro was picked over the M4. It won. Obviously to your point there is more to it than track times, which is why the Mustang lost then and Camaro won now. You haven't said anything I didn't already say. And since when does buying a car and modifying it mean anything about the auto media doing a comparison review between two cars? The whole point of H2H is to put cars that are worth comparing up against each other. They don't review cars you can buy and modify up against one that is stock.

I already agreed with your second point. Nothing more to say but not really related to this thread either.

As for you last statement. I tend to agree. Seems like you would spend more time asking why people didn't buy a Camaro last generation. Which GM solved several of the reasons I didn't buy a 5th gen, but not all. But at the same time don't make out like Ford doesn't ask Mustang owners either. They went to car shows around the country asking what people wanted in the new Mustang. I just don't think they asked a "select few" like GM does here. Again unrelated to the thread. You can climb off the soapbox.

The point of my post was to refute the claims that the Camaro has somehow, suddenly transcended the pony car market into the upscale, luxury performance car market which seems to be your claim as well as others. My posts and linked proved my point.

Nothing wrong with the maro, but it would prove to be a colossal mistake for GM to make any attempt to upscale it. That is where they need Cadillac to succeed.

[TransAmx2]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

B) The average Joe isn't able to tell the difference in power and performance between the current Mustang and Camaro....especially where it matters...in the 4cyl and 6cyl market. .

I'm an average joe and I test drove a '15 SRT, '16 SS and '16 GT-PP back to back and I could easily tell the difference in power and performance, most obvious is low end torque, SS and SRT have it, GT simply does not that's the biggest take away I had from driving the 3. Also both the Camaro and the SRT's brakes felt better. I don't consider myself bias as I was seriously considering all 3 and was even hoping for the GT to surprise me but it wasn't nearly as fun to drive.

Understand this is my OPINION, but the performance difference WAS obvious to me.

After driving the SS I feel that in order for me to consider a mustang it would need a supercharger on it, weather it be a roushcharger or an older GT500.

[TransAmx2]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

The point of my post was to refute the claims that the Camaro has somehow, suddenly transcended the pony car market into the upscale, luxury performance car market which seems to be your claim as well as others. My posts and linked proved my point.

Nothing wrong with the maro, but it would prove to be a colossal mistake for GM to make any attempt to upscale it. That is where they need Cadillac to succeed.

I think there are 2 sides to this, 1) the camaro has taken a huge leap forward, 2) the BMW's seem to be resting on their existing designs, only showing small steps in advancement. Is the camaro transcending the pony car market, no I don't think so, but we as consumers are demanding a more well rounded pony car and I think GM, Ford and Dodge are all stepping up the refinement in all aspects of the segment. I think the lines between luxury performance cars and pony cars are becoming more and more gray. The CamaroSS Vs. M4 is only the beginning.

I think GM has done a great job on the '16 Camaro and ATS-V, I would like to see an Alpha platform 4 door LT1 version come out possibly as the next Chevrolet SS, if they can get the exterior design to look considerably better than the existing overgrown Malibu appearance.