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Old 10-02-2022, 12:02 PM   #57
khcoaching
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NG329 View Post
Request for Fact Check on the 'has a better center of gravity' statement. Please site your source because I'm calling BS on that.

It's the same chassis platform between the two cars and the difference in weight really only comes down to the supercharger. That 150lbs is negligible when there is a 160 wheel horsepower advantage for the ZLE stock for stock.

Contrary to the statement above, the ZL1-1LE actually sits lower and would likely have the better center of gravity as depicted between my car and Greg's car.

In addition, the ZLE puts more rubber to the road and as a result has more lateral grip. Weight distribution in the ZL1-1LE is damn near perfect for a car of its size. Can you mod a SS-1LE to be able to outmaneuver a stock ZLE? Sure you can. but no one is leaving their ZLE stock.


I know this is the internet and I shouldn't get upset but honestly some of the misinformation here is starting to get under my skin.
Stock for stock, yep, all correct. In my case, I run all over a stock ZLE on corner entry and mid corner. IMO, the ZLE need some work to run at the very sharp end.
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:14 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by NG329 View Post
As irony would have it, for numbers 1-3 you essentially just described a ZLE. With more power you will eat thru those pads better. As you know, slower cars are easier on consumables which is why the SS-1LE brakes last longer and tires last longer. So you are right that it is Pandora's box. If you make you're SS-1LE faster you will run into the same compromises that the ZLE has regarding consumables.
Not far from the truth! If I could have afforded to buy a ZLE, I would have. The said, when you start pushing for the last 1% of the cars capability, the ZLE, in my experience, plateaus harder than the SS. I understand the consumables and unless you are in a really slow car, it all ends up being the same.

With grip, stock the ZLE is better, but the car is portly when pushing and while you can hide it with slicks, you just go faster and the same problems happen. It still needs work at the sharp end.

The stock aero is good, but also limited as far as a high performing track vehicle is concerned.

Powerwise, they run well, but overheat and you end up having to add coolers and end up doing the same mods as an SS. (headers, cam, etc)

To be clear, I would have loved to have had a ZLE, but I couldn't swing it and this car when done, will crush a stock ZLE for the same or slightly less money at MSRP.
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by khcoaching View Post
I thought about the DSC, but from what I researched, it lacked any real base settings and the people I checked with had a difficult time figuring out the software...I basically don't have time for that.
FWIW, Sam Strano said the base settings that come with the DSC are really good and a nice improvement over stock. The guy who sold it to me said his custom settings got him around 2s improvement at VIR. Seems like a lot, idk, but in talking with him he seems credible. I got it for a really good price so no big deal if I end up ditching it.

The software is pretty basic but looks easy enough to use, but you are certainly correct that writing a custom tune will be time consuming both on the computer and in testing, and you need to know a lot about damping given how many options you have for programming it. However, I do think there's a lot to be gained as the OEM setup uses pretty soft springs and ft roll bar. I'm thinking about getting springs that would compliment the Vorshlag camber plates which drop the front end around 3/8"", so the springs would drop the rear more than the front to account for that, give you about 1" total drop and increase spring rate over OEM, but I also need to make sure the rebound damping can be adjusted to work with the increased spring rates, this may be the limiting factor on increasing spring rates using the OEM magride dampers. I think this would be a major improvement and not cost nearly as much as other options, and it would preserve a lot of the street-friendly ride the SLE has stock as well. The complete DSC coilover system looks really cool, but it's not cheap!
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:23 PM   #60
NG329
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khcoaching View Post
Stock for stock, yep, all correct. In my case, I run all over a stock ZLE on corner entry and mid corner. IMO, the ZLE need some work to run at the very sharp end.
Fair play. My experience mirrors yours.

In my personal experience, MECHANICALENG is quicker in the infield/technical section on his SS-1LE than I was, but it comes down to power and not chassis. I have to be careful not to spin mid-corner so I am more tentative with the throttle where he's just having a good time stalking me. On corner exits it's not even close and I just run away.

On the corner entries I'm consistently carrying 10-15mph more than he is so there's more speed to scrub off and more loading of the front possibly pushing. It doesn't have anything to do with the chassis itself. If you start adding more power to the SS-1LE like you said it becomes pandora's box and the point of diminishing returns.
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:29 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by khcoaching View Post
Not far from the truth! If I could have afforded to buy a ZLE, I would have. The said, when you start pushing for the last 1% of the cars capability, the ZLE, in my experience, plateaus harder than the SS. I understand the consumables and unless you are in a really slow car, it all ends up being the same.

With grip, stock the ZLE is better, but the car is portly when pushing and while you can hide it with slicks, you just go faster and the same problems happen. It still needs work at the sharp end.

The stock aero is good, but also limited as far as a high performing track vehicle is concerned.

Powerwise, they run well, but overheat and you end up having to add coolers and end up doing the same mods as an SS. (headers, cam, etc)

To be clear, I would have loved to have had a ZLE, but I couldn't swing it and this car when done, will crush a stock ZLE for the same or slightly less money at MSRP.
I guess I can and do agree with everything you mentioned here, except for the overheating. Here in the Northeast I couldn't get mine to overheat even after a 45min session. Laps were respectable and tires were already cording in this video. I think guys in the south/southwest were the ones having overheating issues. It was 85-90*F on the day I recorded this video.




My best laps on Lightning
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:35 PM   #62
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Lets keep in mind NG329 that Greg is running on 3s. Can you imagine what he can do with 3rs? Maybe we should lend him a set one of these days to see what happens ��
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Old 10-02-2022, 12:49 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Zl1+911 View Post
Lets keep in mind NG329 that Greg is running on 3s. Can you imagine what he can do with 3rs? Maybe we should lend him a set one of these days to see what happens ��
I've been begging him to get on some R compound but that stubborn buzzard refuses to do it. He's getting 6 days out of the 3s. If you really want the SS talk to him. I think he's ready to move onto something else.
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Old 10-02-2022, 01:41 PM   #64
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Bone Stock SS1LE vs ZLE on street tires:

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Old 10-02-2022, 02:08 PM   #65
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To settle this we need to trade cars greg! And get ken to come drive with us in his car!
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Old 10-02-2022, 02:48 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NG329 View Post
Request for Fact Check on the 'has a better center of gravity' statement. Please site your source because I'm calling BS on that.
Fact check for you... ZLE has more weight over front axles which is due to not only the supercharger on top of the engine which is bad for CG since the higher the weight is above the vehicle altitudinal center the harder it is to lower CG. Add to this the fact that the ZLE utilizes 390 mm front rotors and a different caliper that weigh ~ 32 lbs per side vs SS 1LE which are ~25.2 lbs per side, roughly 14 lbs additional rotating weight over the front axle. I won't bother to go into the impacts of rotating weight that moves at wheel speed and how this effects suspension pefromance since this is lost on you anyway. While the chassis is indeed the same the SS 1LE doesn't have the extra cooling needed for the supercharger... last time I checked this was on the front of the car. Finally, the misinformation here is coming from you... including the ~2.14 equivalent HP per pound of weight reduction that rotates at engine speed. As for your drag racing comment... again you are mistaken, plenty of road race teams use lightweight flywheels and clutches, maybe you should do a little fact-checking before you decide to correct someone, it would bode well for you.
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Old 10-02-2022, 06:50 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
From the "Best Time" Thread in the Track Forums. Plenty of examples where ZL1s are NOT faster. Direct copy paste for your convenience. Bro.

Atlanta Motorsports Park - Dawsonville, GA
1. 1:28.67 - jpdaugherty in '17 SS 1LE on 10/21/18, OE SC3, track alignment Video
2. 1:31.87 - CasualGuy in '19 ZL1 1LE on 5/13/20, SC3 220TW (305/325), all stock Video
3. 1:36.35 - Deesiel678 in '18 V6 1LE on 4/3/19, RE71R in 255/285, track alignment Video


Autobahn Country Club - South Course - Joliet, IL
1. 1:33:00 - dvmluaces in '18 SS 1LE on 10/5/20, Pirelli slicks on 18" BBS wheels, track alignment Video
2. 1.33.35 - Junkyardspecial in '18 ZL1 1LE on 5/24/21, OE 3Rs, Rotofab intake, Soler TB, ARH Catless Headers, Corsa Exhaust, Carbon Fiber Brake lines, DTC70/60 Pads, Brembo HTC64 fluid, 93oct tune, Video

Barber Motorsports Park - Birmingham, AL
1. 1:34.08 - LG277 in SS 1LE on 305/680 PZero DH slicks, track pads, Video
2. 1:35.98 - Steelankles in '20 ZL1 1LE on 7/25/21, OEM SC3R, SRF brake fluid, Rotofab CAI, AWE axle back, Video

....and I only got to B. Go see for yourself https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512725
ok now show the same person driving both cars!
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Old 10-02-2022, 07:30 PM   #68
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That's exactly the point I was making earlier. Provoste and Steelankles both have several tracks where they posted lap times in SS 1LEs and ZLEs. Unsurprisingly, the ZLE lap time is always faster.
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Old 10-02-2022, 08:09 PM   #69
NG329
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
Fact check for you... ZLE has more weight over front axles which is due to not only the supercharger on top of the engine which is bad for CG since the higher the weight is above the vehicle altitudinal center the harder it is to lower CG.
Yes, the ZL1-1LE is heavier. I read the brochure. 60lbs heavier than an SS Automatic and 120lbs heavier than an SS manual. The car also sits lower to the ground by an inch affecting that center of gravity. I'm still waiting for you to quote a credible source stating that GM got it wrong for their top spec Camaro and that the SS-1LE has a better center of gravity. I'll wait, but I won't be holding my breath because I value life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
Add to this the fact that the ZLE utilizes 390 mm front rotors and a different caliper that weigh ~ 32 lbs per side vs SS 1LE which are ~25.2 lbs per side, roughly 14 lbs additional rotating weight over the front axle.
Nice. You quoted the brochure. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the car's center of gravity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
I won't bother to go into the impacts of rotating weight that moves at wheel speed and how this effects suspension pefromance since this is lost on you anyway.
How do you know what's lost on me? I'd like to think that I'm a pretty smart guy who works for a top global wealth management firm and rubs shoulders with people who's net worth are well into the hundreds of millions of dollars on a daily basis. I'm actually in the top 5% of talent in my respective field globally. I saved my company $13MM a short while ago spearheading a campus wide cost saving initiative which was eventually adopted nationally across all other sites. I have investments in multiple countries and a side income that nets six figures without an advertising budget. What is it you do again to imply that I'm clueless and can't understand something as basic as rotating mass? Let's keep it about cars because you wouldn't survive 10 minutes in my world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
While the chassis is indeed the same the SS 1LE doesn't have the extra cooling needed for the supercharger... last time I checked this was on the front of the car.
Again, you said "better center of gravity". The ZL1 being heavier is not in question. Do you even understand what "Center of gravity" is and how it relates to chassis dynamics? I bet you probably think that lighter is always better right? In fact, I'd bet money on that since you're bragging about how lightweight flywheels are the magic key to the SS. Let me help you out: Lighter is not always better on rotating parts because of something called MOI (Moment of Inertia). I'll simplify this for you since you're probably seething by now. What matters more is WHERE the weight is placed in addition to the total weight. So in other words, you have some lightweight wheels that don't handle as well as slightly heavier wheels because of where the weight is placed on the wheel (the lip for example as opposed to near the wheel hub). The weight should be as close to the center as possible. The further away the weight is from the center, the more detrimental affect it will have on handling. So while the ZL1-1LE brake rotors are indeed heavier, the additional weight is in the center of the rotor reducing it's negative effect on handling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
FFinally, the misinformation here is coming from you... including the ~2.14 equivalent HP per pound of weight reduction that rotates at engine speed.
No, it was you who quoted that dumb assed '2.14 equivalent HP' and it is wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
As for your drag racing comment... again you are mistaken, plenty of road race teams use lightweight flywheels and clutches,
I never said teams don't use it. What I said was "I don't recommend it", and I stand by that. Just because a race team uses it, doesn't mean that it's gospel or that it'll work on your stock assed SS. Race teams are all about collecting data and experimentation. I also doubt that they are lightening flywheels on 3,800lb street cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
maybe you should do a little fact-checking before you decide to correct someone, it would bode well for you.
I'm doing quite well in life. You should humble up a little bit. That would bode well for you.
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Old 10-02-2022, 08:16 PM   #70
NG329
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrptrks View Post
That's exactly the point I was making earlier. Provoste and Steelankles both have several tracks where they posted lap times in SS 1LEs and ZLEs. Unsurprisingly, the ZLE lap time is always faster.
I mean, I'm starting to sympathize. I kind of went through it. I reeeeeaaaallly wanted to believe that the ZL1-1LE was better than the Porsche GT3 and I've finally come to terms with the fact that it is simply not true.

It was hard, but I finally saw the light. GT3 > ZL1-1LE It hurts but at least I am saved.
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