MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[rgrizzard]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Well...when the changes have just occured within months...and the economy is tanking to the point of moderatre recession. The benefits of these changes just aren't going to be realized, are they?

It's like screwing in a new, more efficient lightbulb, but not flicking the switch.



Their entire consumer base, and their entire company. Chapter 11 is quickly being considered by everyone (including some of our politicians) as a highway to Chapter 7. That'll help matters.........


What's your reasoning behind that statement?? What deep-rooted problems? It's called UAWThe 'lackluster' management was responsible for those great new products...Actually I give that to engineering not management.


I'm sure they expected questions...they didn't expect such uninformed, biased resistance to a LOAN.

Are you willing to give someone elses money to a failing company that isn't keeping up with the others?

[rgrizzard]

Originally Posted by azfan

What really disgusted me is the media focusing on the CEO's arriving via private jets. i really don't care about that. The company's own the jets. But there it was all day long, all through Nightline even. We gotcha! you're just like the wall street CEO's that partied away the money!
man am i sick of the media.

Your own comparison to WallStreet proves the media's fingerpointing. They should have come humbly, not in private jets. How do you relate to someone saying they need your money when they flew in on a private jet.

It's funny how small business built this country but big ones are ripping it up!!!

[DGthe3]

rgrizzard, engineers do what they are told. They give the best that they can, given price constraints. They don't sit around and say "hmm, I think we should make this car a cheap POS". The general business model for the big 3 was to make cheap cars and hope that people buy them and thus generate maximum profit. Oops. Now things are moving towards making cars that are a better vaule, a small but significant difference.

[rgrizzard]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

rgrizzard, engineers do what they are told. They give the best that they can, given price constraints. They don't sit around and say "hmm, I think we should make this car a cheap POS". The general business model for the big 3 was to make cheap cars and hope that people buy them and thus generate maximum profit. Oops. Now things are moving towards making cars that are a better vaule, a small but significant difference.

Actually I was commenting to Dragoneye about him giving credit to the "lackluster management" for the great new products and my point was that their engineering did it. I am not sure what POS cheap vehicles you are referring to but if it is a Chevy I have to disagree with you and would recommend a toyota site for you...

[AZCamaroFan]

they already own the jets. it's not like they went out and rented them. and the supposed $20,000 it took to fly it is peanuts compared to the dollars they need. to top it off the finger is being pointed by are wonderful upright politicians. And we know they never fly around the country on jets paid for by the businessmen who line they're pockets. Plus they're getting lumped in with execs from other companies that are getting paid a lot more, and they havn't been running these companies forever.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by rgrizzard

Actually I was commenting to Dragoneye about him giving credit to the "lackluster management" for the great new products and my point was that their engineering did it. I am not sure what POS cheap vehicles you are referring to but if it is a Chevy I have to disagree with you and would recommend a toyota site for you...

I know. Management told the engineers to build cheap cars for 20 years, this was for a number of reasons: new fuel economy standards and emmissions equipment cost a lot, so do unionized workers. Now the engineers have been told to build cars with good value. Cimeron vs CTS. 1999 Malibu vs 2009 Malibu. Saturn SW vs Astra. Cavalier vs Cobalt vs Cruze.

Every engineer wants their product to be absolutely perfect. They constantly fight cost. But any engineer will light up when told to build the best. The result? The Enclave, CTS-V, G8, ZR1, Volt, etc.

Where does management fit in? They give the engineers the parameters for the car. Recent years have seen the shift from 'low cost' to 'good value'. That allows for cheap plastic to be replaced with nicely textured soft touch plastic, for example.

[Aries]

Originally Posted by azfan

they already own the jets. it's not like they went out and rented them. and the supposed $20,000 it took to fly it is peanuts compared to the dollars they need. to top it off the finger is being pointed by are wonderful upright politicians. And we know they never fly around the country on jets paid for by the businessmen who line they're pockets. Plus they're getting lumped in with execs from other companies that are getting paid a lot more, and they havn't been running these companies forever.

That may be, but that's just like a homeless person standing on the street corner begging for money wearing a $5000 Armani suit. Doesn't seem like he's making the sacrifices needed. Spending $20,000 instead of $800 for a first class ticket then crying broke and begging for money is astonishing. Also, why the hell are these CEO's and executives making millions of dollars when their companys are on the verge of bankruptcy? I've never even flew 1st class before yet they want my hard earned money so they can continue to fly around in a private jet? Get real!!!

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by trm0002

Maybe Wagoner should have driven a Camaro there to show them they're responsive to the public's desire(s)...

No it would have been better in the Senate member's eyes if he had shown up in a Chevy Volt...

for those complaining about him showing up in a private jet, think of this, to fly on a commercial airline you are required to arrive 1 to 2 hours before hand, from detroit to washington is probably a couple hour flight, If it takes off on time, and then it would depend on what the time of the meeting was scheduled and what times ther airlines had flights going to washington. He didn't know how long the meeting would last either so how can he purchase a round trip ticket? then to return to detroit he goes through this all again.. remember he is a CEO not some engineer that makes 150K a year, his time is more valuble than Joe Smoe the engineer... how much is his time worth to GM?


PS anyone have the airline schedule for the day of the meeting In Washington?

edit I just checked with Delta, and to schedule a flight first class from detroit to washington for a one day round trip, it costs $1,358.00 per person, the travel time is 4 hours and 53 minutes with one layover.
Was He the only passenger on the plane? I don't think people have thought this completely through.

[trm0002]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

No it would have been better in the Senate member's eyes if he had shown up in a Chevy Volt...

What I was getting at is the public in general wants the Camaro among others; Congress wants the Volt. I know I'm never buying one...

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by trm0002

What I was getting at is the public in general wants the Camaro among others; Congress wants the Volt. I know I'm never buying one...

yeah but who has control of the 25 billion, the american public or Congress? those are the ones going to be putting strings to the money not the american people...

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

What's your reasoning behind that statement?? What deep-rooted problems? The 'lackluster' management was responsible for those great new products...

It seems that since Rick brought on Bob to transform product, they continued to loose money. I have no doubt that the cars they make today are the best they've ever made, DIRECTLY due to Bob Lutz. But they continue to loose money. It's the people who manage the finances fault that things are in the shape they are in, and this trend was going on long before Bob Lutz came aboard. GM started burning more than they were bringing in in the late 1990s.

They could be selling cars left and right and with poor financial management still be in the same shape they are in today.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by fastball

It seems that since Rick brought on Bob to transform product, they continued to loose money. I have no doubt that the cars they make today are the best they've ever made, DIRECTLY due to Bob Lutz. But they continue to loose money. It's the people who manage the finances fault that things are in the shape they are in, and this trend was going on long before Bob Lutz came aboard. GM started burning more than they were bringing in in the late 1990s.

They could be selling cars left and right and with poor financial management still be in the same shape they are in today.

It's a hell of a lot more than the finance guys. GM is a huge machine.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by fastball

It seems that since Rick brought on Bob to transform product, they continued to loose money. I have no doubt that the cars they make today are the best they've ever made, DIRECTLY due to Bob Lutz. But they continue to loose money. It's the people who manage the finances fault that things are in the shape they are in, and this trend was going on long before Bob Lutz came aboard. GM started burning more than they were bringing in in the late 1990s.

They could be selling cars left and right and with poor financial management still be in the same shape they are in today.

Okay...after all that...would you accept the idea that now, at the point when most everything you want to see happen HAS happened...the economy has absolutely tanked, and no matter how much restructuring or cost cutting is done, GM will loose money due solely to the fact that nearly 30% of their sales have disappeared, and among them their most profitable models?