[94boosted]

Originally Posted by Gefiltefish

I am an SAC member and former Gen6 Camaro owner (moved on from it last year).

This topic was put out for member comment after receiving letters and comments in other letters over the years (I have been on the SAC since 2016).

I want to thank everyone for the comments we have received so far. Our agenda is full of letters. Please don't be offended if you get a "Thank you for your input" reply. We are not going to make a quick decision on this item. After all, it would be for 2020 anyway. And we need to clear our agenda each month!

We on the SAC (and our bosses on the SEB) have to plan for the future well in advance. It takes time to class cars, move cars, etc. With that in mind, we are very concerned about the FS numbers at the National solo level. 2018 Solo Nationals numbers were on the weak side and the participation at other National Solo Series events (Pro Solo, National Tour, etc) also saw a large decrease in class participation. That - combined with letters we received over the years, made us think it was a good time to send this subject out for member comment. Its the silly season and we knew this was a good time to get member feedback. We have been talking about this at the SAC level for several months. Several scenarios were thought of.

My personal support of pushing this out for comment was based on that "bumping" the ZCP has the least effect on a majority of the car owners in the class. There were more non-ZCP owners (as in Camaro and Mustang owners) competing at the National level than ZCP owners. And numbers have shown that the ZCP could compete in BS (although not at the tippy-top, it could contend for trophies).

If we had instead floating something like moving all of the "Track Pony" cars (6th gen SS 1LE, Mustang PP2, GT350, etc) to FS - we could be forcing EVERYONE in FS to buy new cars. Those cars would likely be significantly faster than ZCP's and obviously faster than the Mustang GT's, Camaro SS's and 5th gen 1LE's. Additionally "Track Ponies" are expensive cars. They are new (for the most part) and north of $40,000. I don't personally believe those cars can support a National Solo class.

We are trying to gauge why people are not participating in FS. 25430 being out for comment is the first step in gauging the memberships perception of the class. There could be more FS ideas going out for comment as well. We have the "German Pony Car" in the M3 there now, perhaps we ask for comments on allowing "Japanese Pony Cars" like the 370Z to go to FS? (you would not believe how many 370Z letters we get!!!) Maybe we do nothing, but are there enough ZCP owners out there to make a healthy National solo class? Heck, maybe we have too many Street classes and FS (as we know it) gets completely eliminated!?! Anything is a possibility. Nothing has been decided. So please write us you letters!

Really appreciate your insight

May as well ask you as you're on the forum, I take it the December Fast Track had a typo? The AS->BS Track Pony move is meant to take place Jan 1, 2019 not Jan 1, 2020?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Gefiltefish

...

We on the SAC (and our bosses on the SEB) have to plan for the future well in advance. It takes time to class cars, move cars, etc. With that in mind, we are very concerned about the FS numbers at the National solo level. 2018 Solo Nationals numbers were on the weak side and the participation at other National Solo Series events (Pro Solo, National Tour, etc) also saw a large decrease in class participation. That - combined with letters we received over the years, made us think it was a good time to send this subject out for member comment. Its the silly season and we knew this was a good time to get member feedback. We have been talking about this at the SAC level for several months. Several scenarios were thought of.

...

We are trying to gauge why people are not participating in FS. 25430 being out for comment is the first step in gauging the memberships perception of the class. There could be more FS ideas going out for comment as well. We have the "German Pony Car" in the M3 there now, perhaps we ask for comments on allowing "Japanese Pony Cars" like the 370Z to go to FS? (you would not believe how many 370Z letters we get!!!) Maybe we do nothing, but are there enough ZCP owners out there to make a healthy National solo class? Heck, maybe we have too many Street classes and FS (as we know it) gets completely eliminated!?! Anything is a possibility. Nothing has been decided. So please write us you letters!

Gefiltefish,

I am going to offer my opinion on the bolded points based off my observations of being one who primarily buys and drives the cars that are or end up in FS: American "Pony" cars.

I think the fault in FS is connected directly to the type of cars that make FS...

Before I go forward with where I am going with this, consider these points in the back of your head as you read further:

-Who are the major players in FS?
-What are sales like for cars like for these cars?
-What kind of people tend to buy these cars?
-What "persona" or lifestyle image follows these types of cars
-Socially, what are trends that are developing in the automotive industry related to what's "hot" or what people's "needs" are?

So, the major players in FS are Ford, GM, and BMW "pony"-type cars. Some other players show up, but everything is pretty much some sort of "pony" car or mid-level-performance-oriented RWD car.

None of these cars are great average daily drivers. They can be, but all of them have some number of compromises. The kind of people that buy these cars are usually people willing to make certain compromises or simply are able to (People that don't have a family or are retired). The price point of them targets, mostly, late-20's+ people.

Then, if you look at the people actually buying these cars (the ones classed in FS), you have to consider what most of them are actually going to do with those cars. The trend is, a lot of people, especially the younger ones, are not interested in really driving their car. They are all in for the "feeling". So, they end up just cruising their cars, going to car shows, maybe doing little modifications (that they pay someone to do rather than themselves - this plays into the mindset). Spectator things. Feelings-type things.

Current vehicle prices, overall, are kind of high and a lot of people carry a lot of debt. Couple that with people not being as interested in truly driving their cars and you have an environment where people are choosing vehicles of function and cost over what looks cool, sounds cool, is faster 0-60 (etc.), even if it's in their price range. SUVs, CUVs, trucks... people are even buying cars, in general, less (we'll see how long that lasts though).

Now, these things also affect all the other performance cars, but I would argue not as much. Why? The cars in FS are sort-of like the middle-class of performance cars. If you jump to cars like Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Honda CTR,
and VW GTI - these are all performance cars, but they don't compromise as much and/or can cost less than most FS cas. Jump to cars like Corvette, Miata, S2000, RX8, and GT86. These cars compromise just as much as the FS cars, but, typically, these cars are all run as older, used cars and are an easier personal-business case to justify. Most of the FS cars that are older, become uncompetitve faster, too. Finally, overall, the more extreme cars attract the more extreme buyers, who are more likely to do an abnormal thing with their car, like autocross or track days - these people are small percenters.

Summary:
The type of person that typically buys your typical FS-type car looks to be decreasing in size. In addition, the people that do buy typical FS-type cars are increasingly not wanting to drive their cars in a real performance setting.

For FS to grow, I strongly believe that the class will need to accept so "non-traditional" competition. Not an easy thing to sort through...

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Gefiltefish,

I am going to offer my opinion on the bolded points based off my observations of being one who primarily buys and drives the cars that are or end up in FS: American "Pony" cars.

I think the fault in FS is connected directly to the type of cars that make FS...

Before I go forward with where I am going with this, consider these points in the back of your head as you read further:

-Who are the major players in FS?
-What are sales like for cars like for these cars?
-What kind of people tend to buy these cars?
-What "persona" or lifestyle image follows these types of cars
-Socially, what are trends that are developing in the automotive industry related to what's "hot" or what people's "needs" are?

So, the major players in FS are Ford, GM, and BMW "pony"-type cars. Some other players show up, but everything is pretty much some sort of "pony" car or mid-level-performance-oriented RWD car.

None of these cars are great average daily drivers. They can be, but all of them have some number of compromises. The kind of people that buy these cars are usually people willing to make certain compromises or simply are able to (People that don't have a family or are retired). The price point of them targets, mostly, late-20's+ people.

Then, if you look at the people actually buying these cars (the ones classed in FS), you have to consider what most of them are actually going to do with those cars. The trend is, a lot of people, especially the younger ones, are not interested in really driving their car. They are all in for the "feeling". So, they end up just cruising their cars, going to car shows, maybe doing little modifications (that they pay someone to do rather than themselves - this plays into the mindset). Spectator things. Feelings-type things.

Current vehicle prices, overall, are kind of high and a lot of people carry a lot of debt. Couple that with people not being as interested in truly driving their cars and you have an environment where people are choosing vehicles of function and cost over what looks cool, sounds cool, is faster 0-60 (etc.), even if it's in their price range. SUVs, CUVs, trucks... people are even buying cars, in general, less (we'll see how long that lasts though).

Now, these things also affect all the other performance cars, but I would argue not as much. Why? The cars in FS are sort-of like the middle-class of performance cars. If you jump to cars like Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Honda CTR,
and VW GTI - these are all performance cars, but they don't compromise as much and/or can cost less than most FS cas. Jump to cars like Corvette, Miata, S2000, RX8, and GT86. These cars compromise just as much as the FS cars, but, typically, these cars are all run as older, used cars and are an easier personal-business case to justify. Most of the FS cars that are older, become uncompetitve faster, too. Finally, overall, the more extreme cars attract the more extreme buyers, who are more likely to do an abnormal thing with their car, like autocross or track days - these people are small percenters.

Summary:
The type of person that typically buys your typical FS-type car looks to be decreasing in size. In addition, the people that do buy typical FS-type cars are increasingly not wanting to drive their cars in a real performance setting.

For FS to grow, I strongly believe that the class will need to accept so "non-traditional" competition. Not an easy thing to sort through...

I suggest you send this in to the SEB if you haven't already!

[Mountain]

Will do.

[Hasti]

Originally Posted by apexit53

All noise. Writhe your letters, complain all you want. Who cares. The scca will do what they want so it’s not with bitching over. Silly season in full swing. Just looking forward to next year, bench racing isn’t for me.

Was bored at work today and felt like looking at some times after the controversy about pre driving the course at nationals. Having confirmed with several people on the GM team they did replicate the course at the proving grounds, decided to compare two drivers who went to the same events right after each other. Both Hunter Poole (GM team) and Patrick Burke drove in sixth gen Camaros (same front bar and same tires, different Shocks) at nationals and the subsequent event at Toledo Express airport on September 30th
Hunter best time at TEA (with cone) 54.674, so ill give that a 52.674
Patricks best time at TEA 51.758
Hunters combined time at nationals 137.038
Patricks best time at nationals 137.555
So patrick was 1 second faster at TEA and approx. .5 seconds slower at nationals
Just read the M3 guy coming in here talking smack so thought id do some comparisons

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by Hasti

Was bored at work today and felt like looking at some times after the controversy about pre driving the course at nationals. Having confirmed with several people on the GM team they did replicate the course at the proving grounds, decided to compare two drivers who went to the same events right after each other. Both Hunter Poole (GM team) and Patrick Burke drove in sixth gen Camaros (same front bar and same tires, different Shocks) at nationals and the subsequent event at Toledo Express airport on September 30th
Hunter best time at TEA (with cone) 54.674, so ill give that a 52.674
Patricks best time at TEA 51.758
Hunters combined time at nationals 137.038
Patricks best time at nationals 137.555
So patrick was 1 second faster at TEA and approx. .5 seconds slower at nationals
Just read the M3 guy coming in here talking smack so thought id do some comparisons

I will say this, nationals conditions for us were decent but nowhere ideal. not sure what the Toledo weather was like.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Hasti

Was bored at work today and felt like looking at some times after the controversy about pre driving the course at nationals. Having confirmed with several people on the GM team they did replicate the course at the proving grounds, decided to compare two drivers who went to the same events right after each other. Both Hunter Poole (GM team) and Patrick Burke drove in sixth gen Camaros (same front bar and same tires, different Shocks) at nationals and the subsequent event at Toledo Express airport on September 30th
Hunter best time at TEA (with cone) 54.674, so ill give that a 52.674
Patricks best time at TEA 51.758
Hunters combined time at nationals 137.038
Patricks best time at nationals 137.555
So patrick was 1 second faster at TEA and approx. .5 seconds slower at nationals
Just read the M3 guy coming in here talking smack so thought id do some comparisons

2018 Nats
Poole: 74.554(1), 74.074, 72.993
diffs: -0.480, -1.081
64.615, 64.305, 64.045
diffs: -0.310, -0.260
Burke: 73.235, 73.649, 72.879
diffs: 0.414, -0.121
65.327, 65.095, 64.676
diffs: -0.232, -0.419

2018 NWOR Event 10
Poole: 55.780(1), 55.399(1), 55.568(2), 54.674(1)
diffs: -0.381, 0.169, -0.894
Burke: 58.199(2), 53.722, 55.098(1), 51.758
diffs: -4.477, 1.376, -3.340

Figured to entertain this and look at the run-to-run changes between the two events.

But the “Coursegate” really isn’t the discussion here, it’s about FS cars.

[Hasti]

Originally Posted by apexit53

I will say this, nationals conditions for us were decent but nowhere ideal. not sure what the Toledo weather was like.

ideal, sunny and 70

[Hasti]

Originally Posted by Mountain

2018 Nats
Poole: 74.554(1), 74.074, 72.993
diffs: -0.480, -1.081
Burke: 73.235, 73.649, 72.879
diffs: 0.414, -0.121

2018 NWOR Event 10
Poole: 55.780(1), 55.399(1), 55.568(2), 54.674(1)
diffs: -0.381, 0.169, -0.894
Burke: 58.199(2), 53.722, 55.098(1), 51.758
diffs: -4.477, 1.376, -3.340

Figured to entertain this and look at the run-to-run changes between the two events.

But the “Coursegate” really isn’t the discussion here, it’s about FS cars.

You really didn't compensate for cones the cones are included in the time there

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Hasti

You really didn't compensate for cones the cones are included in the time there

I kept them on purpose to follow how each driver dealt with the course.

[Hasti]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I kept them on purpose to follow how each driver dealt with the course.

that helpls your argument more. Cause if you take cones out the data follows what I say.