[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If GM does this then I can certainly understand their POV on the matter. GM loses lots of money because people tune these cars, blow their engines up, then commit fraud at the dealership by finding ways to scam GM into paying for the work. And it really isn't fair. So if they can figure out a way to make these cars untunable by anyone but them, then good for them. It's either that or they'll start losing soo much money that it won't be profitable to even make the car anymore.

Agreed... too many people feel it's ok to return the car to stock to take it back to the dealer when things go wrong, this is not just shady, it's fraudulent.

Except for Subaru WRX/STi, as any aftermarket tune is likely to be an improvement, almost a requirement, to get their cars to run properly.

The other issue is emissions, tunes generally aren't as clean.

[DenverTaco07]

GM probably like tuners, or they should, excuse not to warranty.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

"For every lock there is a Key", some one will get it open, all it takes is time and money.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

"For every lock there is a Key", some one will get it open, all it takes is time and money.

You're very optimistic, which I honestly respect and appreciate. However, the only way to crack a properly implemented encryption scheme before the heat death of our solar system is through a backdoor, if any (aka exploiting the human element) or with a strong enough quantum computer. The latter does not exist yet and I wouldn't bet on it becoming an amazon prime special any time soon.

Now of course "properly implemented" is a term easy to throw out and more tricky to make happen, yet those half-assed encryption attempts to date were likely born out of business and policy considerations rather than incompetence (hopefully, haha), and these considerations are apparently on the move, which is what this thread is about IMO.

[Yanniz]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

You're very optimistic, which I honestly respect and appreciate. However, the only way to crack a properly implemented encryption scheme before the heat death of our solar system is through a backdoor, if any (aka exploiting the human element) or with a strong enough quantum computer. The latter does not exist yet and I wouldn't bet on it becoming an amazon prime special any time soon.

Now of course "properly implemented" is a term easy to throw out and more tricky to make happen, yet those half-assed encryption attempts to date were likely born out of business and policy considerations rather than incompetence (hopefully, haha), and these considerations are apparently on the move, which is what this thread is about IMO.

So are you saying that tuners will not be able to crack “the code?”

[RUQWIKR]

It's always the OEM's "fault".

Guy takes car, throws a 3/4-race cam, nitrous, slicks, goes to the drag strip, dumps the clutch, something in the drive line breaks. Guy bitches about crappy [insert OEM name]'s parts. Either gets it warrantied as-is with a friendly (fraud committing) dealer, or puts it all back to stock and takes it in under warranty. Tells the dealer, I was just pulling out of my driveway, when, snap, it broke.

Still chicken shit, still fraud. Drives up cost for everyone.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Yanniz

So are you saying that tuners will not be able to crack “the code?”

Read this: https://crypto.stackexchange.com/que...ute-force-rsa/, and the 2nd answer in particular (the one that has a score of 12 at the moment). As far as I know, a 4096-bit RSA or a 256-bit Rijndael (AES) key is still impenetrable today, when implemented correctly.

Full disclosure, I know nothing about the particular implementation used by GM, and of course those "better" ways mentioned in the above answer may also be available in said implementation to exploit weaknesses

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by RUQWIKR

It's always the OEM's "fault".

Guy takes car, throws a 3/4-race cam, nitrous, slicks, goes to the drag strip, dumps the clutch, something in the drive line breaks. Guy bitches about crappy [insert OEM name]'s parts. Either gets it warrantied as-is with a friendly (fraud committing) dealer, or puts it all back to stock and takes it in under warranty. Tells the dealer, I was just pulling out of my driveway, when, snap, it broke.

Still chicken shit, still fraud. Drives up cost for everyone.

Tunability and potential for this kind of warranty fraud aren't necessarily married, there are ways to create a non-repudiable system that allows modifications, yet guarantees their discoverability. In fact, that is the kind of system I consider the best of both worlds, it allows personalization while cracking down on a-holes who love to shun responsibility for their actions.

The problem is with all those other aspects that typically come up in these discussions (safety, security, efficiency, vehicle-to-vehicle communication, emissions, liability etc.), all of which creates a significant combined incentive against allowing third party modifications in the future. These may soon grow strong enough to counterbalance the desire to keep the aftermarket alive.

[Infamus]

the same way it was hacked recently making the ZR1 accessible for tuning so it will continue. The ZR1 has the latest encryption standards, it is like other have said its a question of time and money.

Think about it this way... if no one hacks it moving forward then companies like Edelbrock, Whipple, Magnuson will dry up and die... Large engine builders and performance shops would close... so its not just Camaro owners, or Mopar or even Ford (ROFL sorry) its everyone who owns a 2019 / 2020 moving forward... so there is a business case to invest the dollars to hack it, its almost like the old Mad comics 'Spy vs Spy" they lock it some one unlocks it... there is money to be made and not at $5K each... along those lines what are tuners charging to do a custom tune that includes an auto trans update? its already almost $3K, I had my C7 GS tuned in 2017 and the cost as part of SC install to tune was almost 2K.

just food for thought...

[Squatch]

In the military we have our radios "frequency hop". It changes frequency 100 times a second. this pretty much made it impossible to listen in on our transmissions. Even our own guys could not break into it.
This might be the next step for cars computers, the encryption will change each second basically making them unbreakable, unless you get the code from GM, which could be a 1 time use and you have to link it directly to GM HQ to do it. who knows. If they got serious about locking down their stuff, it would happen.

[nighttowl]

would be cheaper to create a standalone ecu....

[Stealth7]

Originally Posted by nighttowl

would be cheaper to create a standalone ecu....

+1 To the fraud comments above. If you're going to play, you must be willing to pay if your changes have caused problem.

FYI, with a standalone ECU, if the unit was swapped in and swapped out from time to time, then the manufacturer and dealer would still know since the mileage recorded on the OEM ECU Unit would not be consistent the overall Vehicle odometer mileage.

[RUQWIKR]

Originally Posted by Stealth7

+1 To the fraud comments above. If you're going to play, you must be willing to pay if your changes have caused problem.

FYI, with a standalone ECU, if the unit was swapped in and swapped out from time to time, then the manufacturer and dealer would still know since the mileage recorded on the OEM ECU Unit would not be consistent the overall Vehicle odometer mileage.

If BCM, ECM, TCM, IPC (cluster), etc. are changed together, with original calibration files put into them, it can appear as not a modified vehicle...until trace info on those modules are checked by the OEM, if they choose to go that far.

Why do you think most of the "hot" deals on nice "take off" stock wheels and tires show up on Craigslist without TPM sensors or with new ones (or just rubber valve stems) installed? Because the sensors are a FMVSS trace / serial item for the OEM's. One phone call from the cops to the OEM can tell exactly what vehicle the sensor was shipped on. Of course, the seller may have got them from a friend of a friend of a friend...

More and more parts are getting serialized trace info for cyber security, warranty, etc.

[misterjaayy]

People who break something then take it to the ‘mod friendly’ dealers aren’t scamming or committing fraud. Some dealers don’t have to ask GM for permission to fix the cars and can use their discretion.

People who take their modded or formerly modded broken cars to dealers and claim it was stock are maybe unscrupulous but dealers check the ECU to see if it has been tuned. Where is the fraud? The dealers and GM have fail safes already in place.