[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Nice to learn why they made that huge mistake, that resulted in a complete failure of a car. Thanks for sharing!

Curious as to how this a complete failure of a car. It got acclaim in every review with the only downside engine sound and the interior.

Cadillac is and was at that point, trying to differentiate themselves with unique powertrains so they put a wildly expensive TTV6 under the hood instead of the V8.

I'm guessing you've never driven one or you wouldn't make such a bold claim. It truly is a wonderful car to drive.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

True that part of it was the "look" they were going for, but the other part was the performance aspect. The low center of gravity provided by the low roof line combined with the rigidity of the higher belt line are a couple of major factors in the Camaro's handling capability.

I agree with you about the direct vision vs. indirect vision. However, I will argue that for people that drive sports cars, we tend to be a little more vigilant about our surroundings than the typical commuter.

But, yes, at the end of the day, I agree that it is probably a huge factor in sales volume of the Camaro. There is a line between a 'sporty' car and a 'sports' car. Folks that want a 'sporty' car will go more for the Challenger or the Mustang for this among other things. Folks that want a sports car, for the driving experience, will go for the Camaro because it will outperform the competition in just about every way. We are more forgiving to adapt to making adjustments in visibility.

I think it is kind of sad, and must be frustrating to the designers at GM that they build a superior car, and then get flack for the very aspects that make it a superior performer. Life is give and take, if you want some this, you have to give some of that. They really just need to make blind spot, rear cross path, and the rear view mirror cam standard equipment, and they would probably see an uptick in 4 cyl and 6 cyl sales.

This is why this is so controversial on this site. Most people here are enthusiasts and are willing to take the Camaro for what it is. The best Camaro GM has ever made. The issue is overall sales. So if you are on here and you've "gotten used to it" and "adjusted everything" you aren't able to understand why it's even a problem. Some even come here and decry every single magazine article written by professionals who drive all kinds of cars for a living. "It's just not a problem". Well then someone needs to explain why the best car in the segment, the best Camaro ever made isn't winning in sales. My suspicion all along has simply been that the SS/ZL1 sell in reasonable numbers. My guess would be the SS outsells the Mustang GT but I haven't seen the data. What I think is hurting Camaro sales are the people that want an "expressive sporty coupe" and in L4 and V6 cars those people aren't as willing to accept the "it's a sports car so a crap rear seat, small trunk and poor visibility are part of the awesome package" tradeoff. And if a salesman has to say, "don't worry you'll get used to it" you aren't in a good position to start. People that buy a Camaro, wanted a Camaro.

But back to the ATS-V. GM took a sedan that already had limited rear seat head room and chopped the roof another inch. That ATS coupe rear seat has surprising leg room compared to the Camaro and a trunk that easily accommodates 2 sets of golf clubs. The CTS Coupe was even worse.

All that being said, when you reduce functionality for styling, you will limit your audience and I think that's at least part of the Camaro sales problem.

That and the sad fact that this segment is dying. In the good old days, GM had a plant in Norwood Ohio (shopping mall) and Van Nuys California (retail and industrial complex) building 400,000 F-bodies a year. Now we are at 1/10th of that.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

As the owner of a mustang gt and a hardcore car enthusiast, I can confirm that the camaro is pure sports car compared to the mustang. The interior, the seating position, the back seats, the trunk, it’s all completely different from the mustang experience. The mustang feels like a regular passenger car with a huge pair of balls, where as the camaro feels like a dedicated sports car. When I drove the camaro all I could think about was “why does this and the corvette exist”

That is not why enthusiast don’t buy the camaro. I spend a lot of time on other forums and I promote the camaro constantly. They all site the same exact reason as why they aren’t interested, the visibility.

The Camaro is easier to live with than a Corvette. It’s easier to get in/out of and is roomier inside. Camaro has the Corvette driving experience in a more livable package.

Originally Posted by seethruya

The Camaro’s visibility is no worse than the Challenger yet I never hear people harp on the Challenger’s visibility.

It’s really not the visibility of the Camaro. It’s the bunker, slammed roof, feeling that makes you feel there is a visibility issue. You’ve got to want a Camaro look and performance to begin to accept it

[yankee]

People just like to buy boring powerless CUVs and drive very slow on the left lane, like they’re brain dead. No fun, no stamina, no blood in their veins. Just sad 9-5 commuters.

Of course this segment is dying.

[Gasoline_Farts]

Originally Posted by yankee

People just like to buy boring powerless CUVs and drive very slow on the left lane, like they’re brain dead. No fun, no stamina, no blood in their veins. Just sad 9-5 commuters. Of course this segment is dying.

Wrong, it’s even worse than that: they don’t even want to drive. They’d rather go full wall-e and have a car transport them autonomously while they check Facebook and instagrams.

[ssmofo]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

As the owner of a mustang gt and a hardcore car enthusiast, I can confirm that the camaro is pure sports car compared to the mustang. The interior, the seating position, the back seats, the trunk, it’s all completely different from the mustang experience. The mustang feels like a regular passenger car with a huge pair of balls, where as the camaro feels like a dedicated sports car. When I drove the camaro all I could think about was “why does this and the corvette exist”

That is not why enthusiast don’t buy the camaro. I spend a lot of time on other forums and I promote the camaro constantly. They all site the same exact reason as why they aren’t interested, the visibility.

That's why I bought the Camaro, it felt like a Sports car more into the road, the Mustang felt like it was on top of the road, and no sports car inside, seat were terrible, huge balls yes. The SS is a better car in many ways.

[Zaqwert6]

Honestly I don't know why the Mustang sells better than the Camaro, we have a 16 GT as well, and they both have very similar shortcomings and the rest is subjective. Now if our C7 had a backseat, it would beat them both. :-)

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Gasoline_Farts

Wrong, it’s even worse than that: they don’t even want to drive. They’d rather go full wall-e and have a car transport them autonomously while they check Facebook and instagrams.

That’s the truth right there. Kids today don’t even have their 16th birthday on their radar. When I was 13 (and I’m sure most of us on here) I was chomping at the bit just to turn 15 1/2 just to be able to get my temps!

[s346k]

for most; driving is a necessary evil. it’s no longer fun or liberating. growing up in rural areas, i wanted the ability to drive so i could shop stores in the big city, go do big city stuff, and visit my friends without riding a bike for several miles. now shopping is at your fingertips and visiting is done electronically.

i’m an inherent car enthusiast so flooring it and general horseplay was a given.

[protovack]

just a note to those citing reduced overall sales...that's true of the entire auto industry in general. Consider that vehicles last far longer today than they used to. The engines last longer, the weather sealing is better, the windows reject more UV than they used to so the dash materials and seats last longer. People just don't NEED to buy as many cars as they used to. When you bought a 1st generation camaro back in 1968, you might expect to need a complete engine rebuild around 100,000 miles, maybe even earlier if you were hard on the car and didn't change oil religiously. The old formula vinyl seats would have been discolored and maybe ripping. The frames and body were very susceptible to rust. Many people who got to that point just left the vehicle in their yard to rot. Now with engines going to 250-300k without a rebuild, you don't need to trash your car at 100,000 miles anymore. With wage growth being so slow over the past few decades, people are more careful than ever with their vehicles, and people aren't just trashing them anymore. All of these trends contribute to slower overall auto sales, including the camaro.

It's also a different era in terms of people's attitudes and expectations, as several have pointed out here in this thread. People used to be much more involved with their driving, and they wanted coupes with some style. There were also far less people in the US back then, and the roads were definitely not as congested. It was easier to live with a car like the Camaro.

People bring up visibility. The camaros beltline is no higher than any random sedan produced nowadays. The roof is just lower and you sit lower in it, so it seems worse. The truth is, only non-owners complain about the visibility. Owners do not complain about the visibility. That should tell you something. Also, I've had older Camaros and their visibility is no better. So in my mind its a non-issue, but I will grant that for many non-enthusiast people looking at buying a "fun car", it could be a barrier.

The pendulum will swing. At some point, people will be fed up with boring cars. You can see the seeds of the pendulum swinging even now. The Camaro isn't going away, it'll just be back in some new form. As long as cadillac is around, so will Camaro. That combination can be profitable for GM even with relatively low sales volume.

I find it so funny how there are two wildly disparate camps regarding the 6th gen. One camp says it was a big mistake, doomed to failure, the "i'd get one if only they fixed x-y-z..." And then there are those of us who drive our cars every day and love every second of it, lucky to be driving one of the best sports cars ever produced. No other curent production car is as polarizing...or as fun to drive.

[Joe Remi]

Uhh, if the roof and seat are lower, that puts the beltline higher. It doesn't matter how you get there.

[AZCamaroFan]

um no. smh . i've literally right now. 3rd gens sat just as low, the roof was 3 inches lower, and the belt line was lower. the roof and the belt line have nothing to do with each other

[Frisbey]

Originally Posted by protovack

At some point, people will be fed up with boring cars. You can see the seeds of the pendulum swinging even now. The Camaro isn't going away, it'll just be back in some new form. As long as cadillac is around, so will Camaro. That combination can be profitable for GM even with relatively low sales volume.

I find it so funny how there are two wildly disparate camps regarding the 6th gen. One camp says it was a big mistake, doomed to failure, the "i'd get one if only they fixed x-y-z..." And then there are those of us who drive our cars every day and love every second of it, lucky to be driving one of the best sports cars ever produced. No other curent production car is as polarizing...or as fun to drive.

I agree on both counts,
None of us know if the Camaro is profitable, but I expect it is.
If it isn’t, then why are the sales limited by constraints?
And Why is it so hard to get one in Canada ?

If it’s profitable, then it will stay.

But as for me,
I’m still in awe at what an amazing car this is,
Sure, anyone can complain about this or that,
But I NEVER expected to see this caliber of a sports car for the price of the Camaro.

Happy, that’s an understatement

[arpad_m]

The Camaro is truly the working man's dream car with looks and performance to match---and the more one pushes it, the more it comes alive.

It's a car you look forward to driving whenever you get the chance, and definitely not an ideal commuter car for modern day cell phone operators who can't wait for fully autonomous, el cheapo uber/lyft pods or rentals with no identity.

To be honest, I understand both camps to some extent, but at the end of the day I'm glad beyond words that I had the opportunity to buy and enjoy this masterpiece.