[FH212]

Didnt anyone see that NY Times weekly TV special on GM and Barra said pretty matter of factly GM is really no longer a car company but becoming a software company? I almost puked.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/05/t...own-plant.html

[fosterelli]

Originally Posted by North of You

Compare CEOs pay vs employees wages since the 40s. It seems that the money is still flowing up to the 1% to the detriment of the middle class.

This is about profit per vehicle (PPV), not CEO compensation. Legacy costs, labor rates, and other factors kill the Big Three. Just look at the margins of Toyota vs. the Big Three. Massive difference in PPV. Toyota pays slightly higher per hour than GM UAW. But Toyota isn't UAW, so their health/benefits/legacy/pension costs are significantly less.

Last time I looked it was about $75/hour burden rate for UAW at GM, and $55/hour burden rate for Toyota ($35/hour pay rate average for both companies). That's $20/hour PER EMPLOYEE of extra costs for GM. Which is over $7 million of extra cost PER DAY.

The CEO's compensation has nothing to do with the viability of GM. The entire GM executive staff could work for free and it wouldn't put a door ding into the operating costs of the company.

Compare the pay of the boss to the employee in any business. Does the neurosurgeon make more than the janitorial person? And isn't that rightfully so?

GM had $147 billion in revenue for 2018, $11 billion in profit. And the year before was $12 billion in profit. How would the CEO's pay change that?

The UAW factory workers received $11K last year in profit sharing each, $12K the year before. Multiply that by 46,500 and that's over half a billion dollars in profit sharing.

This all comes down to the free market and the stock market. The free market could force GM (and others) to stop sending jobs outside of the USA. When the market is buying a product at the rate which satisfies shareholders, that keeps them and the stock market happy.

As long as the free market says they're okay with these business practices (by purchasing the product in question), and the stock market/shareholders pressure for higher profit margins & dividends, the manufacturer will continue to find ways to put margins ahead of the plant locations (and the employees in those shuttering plants).

[Yessa]

Originally Posted by JD2018_ZL1

It is more than disappointing. I just can't see myself wanting to buy from a company that thinks we are not good enough to build their cars but good enough to buy them. The short sightedness of this is astounding. The fact they don't realize or care they are impacting the ability of people to buy their products is beyond stupid. I can't sit here and think that I need to buy from companies that are investing in this country rather than figuring ways to cut us out. We have to stand together to send a message to these companies we are not accepting of their profits over everything Moto. When companies like Toyota, BMW, Hyundai and others are expanding in America it just is incredible how they can make it work but GM, Ford cant.

Soon we will most likely have no more Camaros. No more Corvettes. No more Camaro Forums like this one. That day is probably coming. One day this country will probably be only Electric Cars and horsepower will be seen as an after-thought. Today's youth see a Car as a liability. The future will be Electric Cars .. Bullet Trains .. Uber .. Lyft .. etc. Basically mass transportation like Brazil. I really hope I'm wrong but the writing is on the wall.

[Smokin19]

Guys, it's a BUSINESS! Having owned a company I always had to make changes in order to sell my product. Ever noticed how restaurants change their menus. People tastes and likes change, just look around. Look how tech has changed, tv's, smart phones, etc. Any company must evolve if they expect to survive. Yes, it's a fact, there will always be somebody getting the short end of the stick.
There are no more milkmen who deliver, telephone operators, could go on forever. Even the fast food employees are being pushed out by ordering kiosk's. It is not easy owning a business in todays environment and really never was, it is always a gamble.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by Mick0311

Says a lot right here:

Laying off 1300 employees saved GM about 7 BILLION a year in labor package costs. Sure the CEOs get paid way too much, but still, to save a company sometimes sacrifices are made. It's either 1300 workers or eventually ALL of the workers ----- everywhere.

[krw1103]

UAW.

[JD2018_ZL1]

Originally Posted by Yessa

One day there will be no more more Muscle Cars on the road-that day is coming. We will all be driving small Electric Cars, all the same color.

Mass transportation just like Brazil.

Forums like this will not exist ... yep it's a hard pill to swallow.

Thats why I am buying all the cars I can possibly buy. The 60s happened and people forget that we had a muscle car war and it died as soon as gas went up and was limited.

Right now we are under a leadership that is not as worried about appeasing certain groups with environmental concerns. So this benefits us but we cant know in 10 years how far we will be. I can already see Manufacturers will be pulling the plug on the big HP cars eventually. The C8 is great but its just the first move in going electric.

Dodge is now doing HP based incentives. So they are doing up to almost 8 grand off red eyes. 10$ per at 797. So they must see some slowing in the segment. Once that slowing comes its almost certain death because the shareholders and accountants start to get involved.

I cant even be so certain there will be a Z06 or ZR1 Corvette the way we think there will be. Cafe standards and other things are always waiting for the next administration that is super environmentally involved.

Hell Ford went Ecoboost in their supercar and Raptor so thats the indication that the S550 will be the last V8 based mustang in my opinion. They are making it cool to have a turbo 6 and not be shy about it. They can say see its in the GT and look at it.

GM is doing the turbo and smaller displacement stuff in Cadillac now. The new V stuff will not be shared power plants any more with Chevy.

So enjoy it guys while we have it. Buy what you can afford enjoy them and dont sell them. Keep them. I really think we got lucky to have this second HP war. We all thought we never would again.

[Aliveguy5]

Originally Posted by Yessa

This is one of many reasons why I am selling my beloved Z-28 -- I will never buy another GM Car.

All of the Big 3 are doing this but yet GM gets all the flack? This doesn't make sense with me.

[SteveV]

Originally Posted by unleaded28

At least the Camaro is manufactured in the USA again, I see no reason to get rid of my american made car. I wouldn't buy a car made in China, Tesla will most likely eat Gm's lunch on electric if that's GM's grand plan.

The only problem with this statement is the GM actually makes a profit. Check out their Wall Street filings.

Tesla has YET to make a PROFIT. I wonder how long Musk will continue to be able to fund a company that cannot turn a profit. It has been what, 5 or 6 years now?

If GM and or Ford went more than 3 years without turning a profit, they would already be out of business.

[SteveV]

Originally Posted by Aliveguy5

All of the Big 3 are doing this but yet GM gets all the flack? This doesn't make sense with me.

I stopped including Chrysler/Dodge in statements like this as they are no longer American owned (Fiat owns them).

So, we really have the big 2 now...

Just sayin...

[Faster12]

Everybody here has a valid argument, but I think many are missing the real issue here. This is what happens when Capitalism rules unchecked. We built this nation on the belief that everyone has an opportunity to make as much money and own as much property as they would like. Then when some people found a way to do just that, we failed to realize that eventually it would create a concentration of wealth and power that would push the middle and lower classes further into their ranks, while boosting those in the 1%. We all love the system when it works for us and hate it when it doesn't. That's the nature of the beast. If you want to punish GM and every other billion and now trillion dollar company (thanks Amazon and Apple) then vote. Elect officials who won't be beholden to big business. Vote for reps who will change the laws and keep these outrageously rich executives in check. The unions aren't to blame for asking for fair wages. If anyone did a little bit of research into economic conditions in this country you would realize that the cost of living has FAR out-paced the increase in wages over the past SEVERAL decades. Just like the $15 dollar minimum wage debate....in truth, if people were treated as equally as their corporate counter parts (remember a corporation is a person in the eyes of the law) then $15 would be a reasonable wage that we would have worked up to over the past 50 years. It only seems outrageous because it's a demand of a 100% increase suddenly. Im not in favor of the moves, but I understand the rationale. As someone else stated earlier, what would you do if you were the owner? I'm just happy to see the amazing cars being churned out by these companies for the true enthusiasts. The rest is just par for the course.

[Homeless Junkie]

Originally Posted by Faster12

Everybody here has a valid argument, but I think many are missing the real issue here. This is what happens when Capitalism rules unchecked. We built this nation on the belief that everyone has an opportunity to make as much money and own as much property as they would like. Then when some people found a way to do just that, we failed to realize that eventually it would create a concentration of wealth and power that would push the middle and lower classes further into their ranks, while boosting those in the 1%. We all love the system when it works for us and hate it when it doesn't. That's the nature of the beast. If you want to punish GM and every other billion and now trillion dollar company (thanks Amazon and Apple) then vote. Elect officials who won't be beholden to big business. Vote for reps who will change the laws and keep these outrageously rich executives in check. The unions aren't to blame for asking for fair wages. If anyone did a little bit of research into economic conditions in this country you would realize that the cost of living has FAR out-paced the increase in wages over the past SEVERAL decades. Just like the $15 dollar minimum wage debate....in truth, if people were treated as equally as their corporate counter parts (remember a corporation is a person in the eyes of the law) then $15 would be a reasonable wage that we would have worked up to over the past 50 years. It only seems outrageous because it's a demand of a 100% increase suddenly. Im not in favor of the moves, but I understand the rationale. As someone else stated earlier, what would you do if you were the owner? I'm just happy to see the amazing cars being churned out by these companies for the true enthusiasts. The rest is just par for the course.

quoted for posterity

Speaking of business owners, early on I started to notice owners were the ones who bitched the most about the cost of everything, taxes and all the people getting a free ride. All the while enjoying all the tax benefits of owning a business and being able to create more wealth than 80% of the population. Meanwhile you talk to the average guy that filled out a W-2 when he got hired and he's happy. He might work 50 hours/week and commute 50+ miles/day to live a middle class life but happy enough. As long as he can buy $700 big screen, $20 jeans and drive a decent car he's satisfied enough with our government not to vote or get involved.

As far as the wealth imbalance goes, we did it to ourselves. As good as words like fair and community sound it isn't what drives us as humans. Capitalism does, Risk versus reward. If we really cared about each other there would not be drug cartels, lobbyists or homeless camps. I would love to be proved wrong but big government doesn't work. Government pikers don't work hard to make sure OPM is spent right. It's a form of social welfare that just ends up costing the taxpayer more of what little they can save for retirement.. cause face it soon the government won't be providing retirement benefits either.

[Expunge]

Originally Posted by fosterelli

This is about profit per vehicle (PPV), not CEO compensation. Legacy costs, labor rates, and other factors kill the Big Three. Just look at the margins of Toyota vs. the Big Three. Massive difference in PPV. Toyota pays slightly higher per hour than GM UAW. But Toyota isn't UAW, so their health/benefits/legacy/pension costs are significantly less.

Last time I looked it was about $75/hour burden rate for UAW at GM, and $55/hour burden rate for Toyota ($35/hour pay rate average for both companies). That's $20/hour PER EMPLOYEE of extra costs for GM. Which is over $7 million of extra cost PER DAY.

The CEO's compensation has nothing to do with the viability of GM. The entire GM executive staff could work for free and it wouldn't put a door ding into the operating costs of the company.

Compare the pay of the boss to the employee in any business. Does the neurosurgeon make more than the janitorial person? And isn't that rightfully so?

GM had $147 billion in revenue for 2018, $11 billion in profit. And the year before was $12 billion in profit. How would the CEO's pay change that?

The UAW factory workers received $11K last year in profit sharing each, $12K the year before. Multiply that by 46,500 and that's over half a billion dollars in profit sharing.

This all comes down to the free market and the stock market. The free market could force GM (and others) to stop sending jobs outside of the USA. When the market is buying a product at the rate which satisfies shareholders, that keeps them and the stock market happy.

As long as the free market says they're okay with these business practices (by purchasing the product in question), and the stock market/shareholders pressure for higher profit margins & dividends, the manufacturer will continue to find ways to put margins ahead of the plant locations (and the employees in those shuttering plants).

Truth.

Me personally I want to keep the jobs in the USA, but when costs are so damn high, yeah business is going to look elsewhere to lower it. I can't fault them, doesn't mean I have to like it though.

And the people that argue about raising the minimum wage.. that's a false flag. You raise the minimum wage by growing the economy and having more jobs than people to fill them. Then businesses will compete for those employees and pay well over minimum wage. And that is what we have now.

If you do it the other way and have government dictate wages then you have downtown Seattle where there are hardly any restaurants in business anymore because they cant afford the employees so they closed down.

Go to McDonalds in downtown Seattle.. 3 employees, a lot of automation, and the price of a average meal was $12.

[Heartbreaker]

Originally Posted by Vtor_ZL1

Normal business cycle. You don't need staff, you lay them off, reduce overhead cost.


I'm sure if you had business and it was "slow" you would not pay your employee to sit around and play uno or some one not value added activity.

+1, exactly, we don’t need another government bailout