[TWG1]

Had a great day at NOLA yesterday, running the 'Bus Stop' configuration. Took the chance to run all nannies off for training. (Track mode, hold T/C button ~8 seconds).

Learned a lot, including a bad habit I've picked up to ramp throttle too early and too aggressively on corner exits. I normally run Sport 1 or Sport 2. The spin at the end of this video has virtually identical throttle trace to my fastest morning runs, where PTM was intervening.

In other words, I need to unlearn some PTM reliance. Note, I was deliberately pushing the limits in the slower/safer corners, and holding back in the faster stuff while training w/o PTM.

[JeffFox]

Thanks for sharing

[N Camarolina]

All part of the learning, and I commend you for turning the nannies off. I'm still pretty new to this (lots of computer sim time but not a ton of track events yet) and am trying to use Sport 1 while accelerating just below where the TCS kicks in (but not always successful, as I learn when watching the PDR playback).

I would like to make a suggestion to you in managing a spin: If the rear steps out under acceleration, you should not lift off the throttle as you counter steer. Instead, leave the throttle in the position it was in right before the car started to rotate. By lifting off the throttle, you are transferring weight toward the front of the car, which unloads the rear wheels and makes it that much harder to catch by counter steering. Keeping the throttle steady (where it was prior to the spin) will keep the front/rear loading steady and remove one variable from the rotation (spin) so that you only have to contend with using the steering wheel to correct it.

[funked1]

Thanks for sharing. I am very tentative with the PTM modes on the track. Sport 2 is as far as I've gone. Really paranoid about tearing up the car off track. I run with everything off for autocross. Working my way towards doing the same on track.

[Zl1+911]

I commend u for trying. Thanks for sharing. Do you notice any benefits of running with everything off? In the sense - is the car easier to control because u are not fighting it? (Outside of a spin situation)? I have wanted to try that myself...

[TrackClub]

Just some musings from my "expert armchair":

Looks like you've overloaded outside rear and it let go.
Punching throttle to 3/4 max and especially even before apex, while the car is still rotating hard will deliver this result. Largely, because the outside rear is maxed out already just cornering and the fronts are still turned, providing much scrubbing resistance. So, a perfect storm.
Also, you pop off the brake pretty suddenly, which will move the weight to the rear suddenly, hence compounding the problem at a critical point. How a driver comes off the brakes is absolutely crucial to maintaining balance. Proper brake release and modulation is key (NB That's why i do not like high torque brake pads).

I don't have a ZLE power, but quickly found out that running all off requires much attention even in an SS 1LE in corner exits (especially slow ones, where torque can easily overpower the outside rear).

Personally, i like PTM Race. You can still definitely spin out on both entries and exits by hooligan like driving, but the race inspired TC provides just enough assistance to avoid the worst of it and as a result a car is easier to catch (on exits only, as TC plays no role on entries). Also, in absolutely worst case, the engine will reduce power to prevent rears losing traction and the rear spinning out because of it. But, this still depends, as if the rears start to slide due to lack of grip (vs tire overslip due to overly aggressive throttle application), TC will not correct it - we would need Stabilitrack for that. So, much is still dependent on driver skill (read: ability to FEEL what the car is doing balance wise F vs R and ability to anticipate and correct any imbalance situations. And as a poster above has noted, "balance" is all about effective weight transfer management).

Also: aspiring to turn everything off may seem like an ultimate goal for many drivers. And i have driven my previous cars with all off, due to necessity. But, even many pro race cars use TC (only). Even with PTM Sport 1, while Stabilitrack will not permit large slip angles (aka excessive yaw), it is still a fabulous and very FAST setting and likely a cat's meow for anyone that doesn't track sufficiently to learn how to intimately FEEL the car thru trial and error. The latter is simply impossible to learn (to drive a car at its limit) without getting tons of seat time.

Lastly, if anyone feels they are "fighting" the car in PTM Sport 1: slow down your inputs! You are likely over driving, not going any faster and if you turn it off, you may start spinning out. So, try to drive just under the limit by learning to FEEL when the nannies engage. You will become a better driver and you will be faster.

Cheers!

PS i am not any faster with all off vs PTM Race. I also - almost never - feel TC engage either (even though some replays indicate it engaging, but it must be extremely slightly).

PSS PTM Sport 2 is just like PTM Race (no Stabilitrack, just TC), except for a less aggressive TC calibration).

[AustinTXracer]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Just some musings from my "expert armchair":

Looks like you've overloaded outside rear and it let go.
Punching throttle to 3/4 max and especially even before apex, while the car is still rotating hard will deliver this result. Largely, because the outside rear is maxed out already just cornering and the fronts are still turned, providing much scrubbing resistance. So, a perfect storm.
Also, you pop off the brake pretty suddenly, which will move the weight to the rear suddenly, hence compounding the problem at a critical point. How a driver comes off the brakes is absolutely crucial to maintaining balance. Proper brake release and modulation is key (NB That's why i do not like high torque brake pads).

I don't have a ZLE power, but quickly found out that running all off requires much attention even in an SS 1LE in corner exits (especially slow ones, where torque can easily overpower the outside rear).

Personally, i like PTM Race. You can still definitely spin out on both entries and exits by hooligan like driving, but the race inspired TC provides just enough assistance to avoid the worst of it and as a result a car is easier to catch (on exits only, as TC plays no role on entries). Also, in absolutely worst case, the engine will reduce power to prevent rears losing traction and the rear spinning out because of it. But, this still depends, as if the rears start to slide due to lack of grip (vs tire overslip due to overly aggressive throttle application), TC will not correct it - we would need Stabilitrack for that. So, much is still dependent on driver skill (read: ability to FEEL what the car is doing balance wise F vs R and ability to anticipate and correct any imbalance situations. And as a poster above has noted, "balance" is all about effective weight transfer management).

Also: aspiring to turn everything off may seem like an ultimate goal for many drivers. And i have driven my previous cars with all off, due to necessity. But, even many pro race cars use TC (only). Even with PTM Sport 1, while Stabilitrack will not permit large slip angles (aka excessive yaw), it is still a fabulous and very FAST setting and likely a cat's meow for anyone that doesn't track sufficiently to learn how to intimately FEEL the car thru trial and error. The latter is simply impossible to learn (to drive a car at its limit) without getting tons of seat time.

Lastly, if anyone feels they are "fighting" the car in PTM Sport 1: slow down your inputs! You are likely over driving, not going any faster and if you turn it off, you may start spinning out. So, try to drive just under the limit by learning to FEEL when the nannies engage. You will become a better driver and you will be faster.

Cheers!

PS i am not any faster with all off vs PTM Race. I also - almost never - feel TC engage either (even though some replays indicate it engaging, but it must be extremely slightly).

PSS PTM Sport 2 is just like PTM Race (no Stabilitrack, just TC), except for a less aggressive TC calibration).

This. I love PTM Race, and it gives you a nice benefit on PDR of lighting the telltale TC light to show you where you are asking too much of the car so you can continually back down to the correct amount of throttle application.

[N Camarolina]

You don't need to be specifically in Race mode of PTM in order to see the TC light upon PDR playback. Any PTM will will do this to show you when you were asking for more throttle than the PTM TCS algorithm was prepared to give you (in order to maintain rear wheel traction).

In addition, you can sometimes hear when TCS activates. I drove in PTM Wet mode for the first time on a partially wet track, and on occasion could hear a low pitched engine moan on corner exit, which I believe is the PTM pulling engine timing to reduce torque. I don't think I was overdriving corner exits in all those instances, because in some cases the track was actually dry (thus, I'm assuming I was simply exceeding the PTM Wet torque request, as when I changed modes on the fly to PTM dry, the moaning did not recur). Would be helpful if someone else with more PTM Wet experience could comment if I'm reading the situation correctly.

[funked1]

This thread is great. Now I feel like less of a wuss for keeping it in Sport 2 on track.
I still enjoy going full send with everything off on the AutoX though!

[UnknownJinX]

I haven't tried all off or PTM Race. I have been safe and using Sport 1, but I actually prefer Sport 2. Funny how on the last open lapping day, I spun out in Sport 1 but didn't have much issue with Sport 2. Maybe it's the old saying that you can't predict what the stability control(or in this case, Active Handling) is doing for you?

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

All part of the learning, and I commend you for turning the nannies off. I'm still pretty new to this (lots of computer sim time but not a ton of track events yet) and am trying to use Sport 1 while accelerating just below where the TCS kicks in (but not always successful, as I learn when watching the PDR playback).

I would like to make a suggestion to you in managing a spin: If the rear steps out under acceleration, you should not lift off the throttle as you counter steer. Instead, leave the throttle in the position it was in right before the car started to rotate. By lifting off the throttle, you are transferring weight toward the front of the car, which unloads the rear wheels and makes it that much harder to catch by counter steering. Keeping the throttle steady (where it was prior to the spin) will keep the front/rear loading steady and remove one variable from the rotation (spin) so that you only have to contend with using the steering wheel to correct it.

The theory is sound, but when your car is spinning out, you would really have to be experienced to know what to do exactly. What OP did was definitely not optimal, but I am not sure if I would have reacted any better in their shoes.

[TrackClub]

I would agree, that seeing a TC flash on PDR is not necessarily a sign of over driving. TC calibration manages any excessive tire over spin, to simply provide as effective forward movement as possible in acceleration (as any tire over slip will prevent that - obviously). So even a minimal tire overslip will register in PDR replay. PTM Sport 2 will allow less tire overslip, while PTM Race will permit more overslip before intervening. That's why, PTM Race may still require a driver to adjust throttle manually in some cases - as stated in GM engineer's comments. As far as throttle input with Sport 2, or Race, the same engineer suggests it is ok to engage 100% throttle early and then let TC dole out appropriate power. But, i don't drive like that and instead always use progressive throttle, as i would with everything off.

No nanny will provide a driver 100% security imo. Also, with Stabilitrack on, the car definitely FEELS tighter and hence a bit less responsive in rotations and the system will mask any excessive yaw (as designed) making a car harder to FEEL in terms of F vs R balance. But again, if a driver over drives severely, the tires may let go. There is only so much traction available, after all.

I'd also say, it is harder to catch a car during power on oversteer vs due to just lateral grip loss. In both cases early and very quick steering correction is key, as which way fronts are pointed relative to rotation is critical. Sometimes the car will correct, but almost immediately go sideways again, requiring multiple corrections to regain balance. Ability to FEEL the balance and knowing how to correct is critical. So is proper vision technique (always). Sometimes staying in throttle is a correct response, but sometimes easing off of it is a correct response. It all depends on what the car is doing. The issue is these actions must be automatic as there is no time to think.
They also must be immediate, as if a slide isn't caught early enough, the car will usually be gone. So, all pro/experienced drivers ANTICIPATE what the car may do at any moment (while also FEELING what the balance is doing) and often proactively correct possible outcomes before they happen. In other words, they help the car stay in balance (usually by steering corrections) by sensing when the car is about to go over the limit and helping it correct its attitude before it becomes a spin.

So, while sawing the steering wheel with no purpose makes little sense, steering corrections make a lot of sense when a car gets to either under, or oversteering limit, to help it regain balance. Thankfully, in both cases, steering corrections call for the same action: very quick and only momentary correction(s) to point the fronts to the outside. Often multiple times. Basically, momentarily straightening them and thus allowing the front to regain grip. At first, it feels counterintuitive to steer to the outside, while the car is pushing and going wide - but it works. For oversteer, it feels more intuitive as a loose car will point to the inside. But the corrections for both are the same: steer to the outside and straighten fronts to regain traction.

Anyway, it is easy to write about it, but not so easy to administer while pushing a car at a limit. Picking a right venue, or corners (as the OP did very smartly) is key. In fast corners, issues happen much faster, with much bigger consequences and are more difficult to manage.

Either way, learning to FEEL the balance (and the limits) is key, lest a driver just becomes a passenger. Seat time is key. So is time spent in a good sim (while there is no direct input re G forces per se, the brain will absolutely make this missing attribute up, based on vision and steering wheel feel).

Bottom line, we all drive differently, have different skill levels, experiences, etc and we don't all track our cars to brake class records. Having fun is an absolute key imo. And definition of fun can be different for everyone. Just taking your car to a track, even just a couple of times per season is a huge achievement in my book.

What's most important, is knowing one's limits, as we all have them

Cheers!

[ICTsccaCamaro]

Since my 1st trackday with the car I have always just ran it in track mode with the PTM in RACE, it will still let the car get pretty sideways.
It seems like any other PTM mode is super intrusive with throttle out of corners. I could see someone getting reliant on PTM if you only ever driven in sport 1 or 2.
Run it in RACE mode and at least know you have a little help from PTM if things go badly.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by ICTsccaCamaro

Since my 1st trackday with the car I have always just ran it in track mode with the PTM in RACE, it will still let the car get pretty sideways.
It seems like any other PTM mode is super intrusive with throttle out of corners. I could see someone getting reliant on PTM if you only ever driven in sport 1 or 2.
Run it in RACE mode and at least know you have a little help from PTM if things go badly.

I did test every single mode when i first got my 17 car, just to see what they do and how they feel. Id say your advice is very sound for someone with experience. Id say, if somebody just tracks a few days per season and just wants to have some fun: PTM Sport 1 offers both Stabilitrack and TC assistance, offering good safety margins in all 3 corner phases. And at fast tracks especially, where quick rotations are not key to pace, laps can still be very, very fast indeed.

The key to understand about PTM Sport 2 and Race is that Stabilitrack is OFF in those settings. This means it is all up to a driver to manage any excessive yaw (under or oversteer) in all 3 corner phases. The only thing TC will assist with is excessive tire overslip under throttle in exits. And hence, as you said, the car can still get sideways anywhere in a corner and it is up to a driver to correct it as there will be ZERO nanny help in that regard.

Cheers!

[N Camarolina]

Stabilitrack does not manage understeer does it?