(jalopnik) Chevy’s Anti-GT500, Pro-Camaro ZL1 Smack-Talking Powerpoint

[htp autoworks]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Some people seem to keep mentioning comparing the 2012 ZL1 and the 2013 GT500, but that would be an apples to oranges comparison. An apples to apples comparison is to compare the same model year vehicles when they are out at the same time.

The Main Event will be the 2013 ZL1 vs. the 2013 GT500, as they are both expected to be available in Summer 2012.

??? So what do you expect to be different between the 2012 and 2013 ZL1?

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Some people? How about almost everyone. You are one of the very few people who are stuck on what model-year the manufacturer placed on each car. By all accounts, the 2012 ZL1 will likely hit the showrooms just a month or two before the 2013 GT500's do. Both will be on the road and tracks at the same time throughout this summer.

By all accounts the 2013 ZL1s and 2013 GT500s will both be on the showrooms and hit the road and tracks at the same time this Summer.

Why bother comparing a 2012 ZL1 to a 2013 GT500 when the 2013 model of both vehicles are expected to be available this Summer?

Originally Posted by tooslow

I have no doubt whatsoever that GM decided to label the ZL1 as a 2012 model and plan a short run of that year model rather than label them all 2013's precisely so a few people who want to argue about "apples-to-apples" comparisons will have the luxury of doing so knowing that the 2012 ZL1 will outperform the car it used as a target during development; the 2012 GT500.

It is perfectly logical to perform an apples to apples comparison between vehicles of the same model year when they are available during a similar time frame.

Originally Posted by tooslow

Unless you feel GM is going to make some serious changes in the ZL1 between the 2012 and 2013 models years, why would you even care whether it was a 2012 or 2013 running the new GT500?

I fully expect that Chevrolet will make some changes to the 2013 ZL1. Chevrolet has made performance changes between consecutive model years many times through the years. The suspension changes made between the 1967 and 1968 Camaro is a good example of a change from one model year to the next which increased performance.

Originally Posted by tooslow

If people really do feel that will be the case, then why in the world are so many people running out to by a 2012 ZL1 when a better version of it is just around the proverbial corner with the 2013 model? I'd be one angry owner if I bought a 2012 ZL1 in the spring only to see a better performing version offered a few months later.

Why did anyone purchase a 2012 GT500 with the new, improved 2013 GT500 coming soon?

One reason for purchasing a 2012 ZL1 is that if one always waits for the next improvement that is coming, one will never make a purchase. If one is going to make a purhase, one has to decide when to make that purchase even knowing that something new and improved will follow, and some people feel that now and the 2012 ZL1 is the right time and choice for them.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Why did anyone purchase a 2012 GT500 with the new, improved 2013 GT500 coming soon?

Nice try, but the 2012 GT500 went on sale in the spring/summer of 2011, well before there was any indication of the kind of changes that might be coming with the 2013 model. You're talking a year between model years, not 3-4 months, as it will be with the ZL1.

If you mean people who are buying 2012 models since November, maybe they are looking for a good deal? Maybe you should ask them and not me.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

So if the 13 GT500 releases 4 months before the 13 ZL1, you won't be able to compare the 13 GT500 to the 12 ZL1, you have to wait 4 months for the 13 ZL1? Really?

There may be those who compare a 2013 GT500 to a 2012 ZL1, however, I will not consider it to be an apples to apples comparison.

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

What if the 13 500 release date is CLOSER to the 12 ZL1 release than the 13 ZL1 release? Making the 13 GT500 closer to being a 12 model than a 13 model? Doesn't matter? What if the 13 500 and the 12 ZL1 released on the exact same day? Still not fair?

Just trying to get an idea of what apples to apples is, in your mind.

Most laws and regulations covering automobiles, such as emissions, safety, and CAFE standards are based on vehicle model year rather than on the date that the vehicle is manufactured or released for sale to the public. Therefore, I consider comparisons of vehicles of the same model year as apples to apples.

Vehicles of different models years can be compared, of course, but I don't consider those comparisons to be apples to apples.

[GT5Junkie]

If they're both the newest MY of that model and they're on sale at the same time, you can compare them. Period. You have to be able to compare them, because people that are actually buying one WILL BE comparing them.

I also find it HIGHLY unlikely that Chevy will make any significant changes between a late release 2012 and what you are insisting will be a very early release 2013.

Your analogy to the 2012/2013 GT500 is apples and oranges, BTW. The 12 GT500 came out in March or April and even then everyone was reasonably sure that the 13 was going to have 600+ (the rumor at the time was 620 out of a 5.8).

The situation you're describing with the ZL1 would only have 4 months or so separating them, rather than the 13+ months separating the GT500s.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Nice try, but the 2012 GT500 went on sale in the spring/summer of 2011, well before there was any indication of the kind of changes that might be coming with the 2013 model. You're talking a year between model years, not 3-4 months, as it will be with the ZL1.

My point is that regardless of there being any official indication of model year changes I believe that most understand that there is always the likelihood of changes and improvements between model years regardless of whether the time frame between consecutive model year releases is 4, 6, 8, or 12 months. I believe that the decision of the particular timing when one purchases a vehicle consists of many aspects and is not simply limited to the changes that may occur between model years.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

If they're both the newest MY of that model and they're on sale at the same time, you can compare them. Period. You have to be able to compare them, because people that are actually buying one WILL BE comparing them.

Some may compare the 2013 GT500 and the 2012 ZL1, however, I will not consider the comparison apples to apples.

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

I also find it HIGHLY unlikely that Chevy will make any significant changes between a late release 2012 and what you are insisting will be a very early release 2013.

Time will tell what changes there will be for the 2013 ZL1, Chevrolet generally keeps future changes close to the vest.

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Your analogy to the 2012/2013 GT500 is apples and oranges, BTW. The 12 GT500 came out in March or April and even then everyone was reasonably sure that the 13 was going to have 600+ (the rumor at the time was 620 out of a 5.8).

The situation you're describing with the ZL1 would only have 4 months or so separating them, rather than the 13+ months separating the GT500s.

My point is that regardless of the date when models are released the apples to apples comparison is of vehicles of the same model due to the fact that laws and regulations related to automobiles are based on model years and not the date of release for sale to the public.

[GT5Junkie]

Which laws and regulations are changing between 2012 and 2013?

[MauriSSio]

comparing the 2012 gt500 vs 2012 zl1 is apples to apples.
in a few months comparing the 2013 gt500 vs 2012 zl1 is also apples to apples to some degree (also have to be the same price or not a big price gap between them)

golden bear, unless you know exactly how the 2013 "model year" regulations will affect the cars, you are just speaking out of your sphincter and making excuses. You can only compare with whats available.

the zl1 was developed to beat the GT500 and GM had 6+ years to study it and do it. the 2013 GT500 was developed to compete against rumors so it still has the deck stacked against it but it will still be interesting. I personally still want to see how the 2012 model does though.

[MauriSSio]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Which laws and regulations are changing between 2012 and 2013?

if anything, laws and regulations get more stringent every year. So iff we take his supposition and run with it, thats still something else the 2013 GT500 has going AGAINST it, and FAVORS the 2012 ZL1 even more.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by MauriSSio

... unless you know exactly how the 2013 "model year" regulations will affect the cars, you are just speaking out of your sphincter and making excuses. You can only compare with whats available.

Regardless of the details of the specific changes in laws and regulations controlling the auto industry, the material piece of information is that there are changes, and each auto manufacturer must comply with those changes.

Comparing vehicles that were designed to comply with different laws and regulations, regardless of those differences, when vehicles that were designed to comply with the same laws and regulations can be compared, is not using best scientific comparison methods and practices, and will not provide optimally significant results.

[MauriSSio]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Regardless of the details of the specific changes in laws and regulations controlling the auto industry, the material piece of information is that there are changes, and each auto manufacturer must comply with those changes.

Comparing vehicles that were designed to comply with different laws and regulations, regardless of those differences, when vehicles that were designed to comply with the same laws and regulations can be compared, is not using best scientific comparison methods and practices, and will not provide optimally significant results.

um, what are you talking about? comparing the times themselves isnt even a scientific comparison. Some drivers like more understeer some like more oversteer, how are we supposed to get scientific results if the way these cars are set up might not even be suited to the driver behind the wheel of the cars when they test them and run the times that they do? all this stuff is just subjective, even with empirical data.

you dont even know what the differences in regulations are so how can you even use that as an argument. Like i stated, regulations usually get more stringent so if anything that is something ELSE the 2013 GT500 has going against it but im sure thats not going to be the reason it loses (or wins).

what would you say then if the 2012 GT500 soundly trounces the ZL1 around the track and is printed in a magazine?? that the driver cant drive?? that it wasnt suited for him?? that theres a magazine conspiracy?? would you use that same argument if the ZL1 is faster??

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by MauriSSio

um, what are you talking about? comparing the times themselves isnt even a scientific comparison. Some drivers like more understeer some like more oversteer, how are we supposed to get scientific results if the way these cars are set up might not even be suited to the driver behind the wheel of the cars when they test them and run the times that they do? all this stuff is just subjective, even with empirical data.

If the comparison is not properly conducted and controlled, or is subjective, then I couldn't care less what the results are.

Originally Posted by MauriSSio

you dont even know what the differences in regulations are so how can you even use that as an argument. Like i stated, regulations usually get more stringent so if anything that is something ELSE the 2013 GT500 has going against it but im sure thats not going to be the reason it loses (or wins).

Again, the material fact is that there are changes, regardless of the specifics of the details.

Originally Posted by MauriSSio

what would you say then if the 2012 GT500 soundly trounces the ZL1 around the track and is printed in a magazine?? that the driver cant drive?? that it wasnt suited for him?? that theres a magazine conspiracy?? would you use that same argument if the ZL1 is faster??

If there is a properly conducted and controlled comparison (including the same driver, same day, same conditions, etc.), then I would take the results at face value.

[MauriSSio]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

If the comparison is not properly conducted and controlled, or is subjective, then I couldn't care less what the results are.


Again, the material fact is that there are changes, regardless of the specifics of the details.


If there is a properly conducted and controlled comparison (including the same driver, same day, same conditions, etc.), then I would take the results at face value.

well in that case, EVERY track test (more so than 1/4 test IMO) is subjective and not worth your attention??