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Old 03-04-2020, 05:34 AM   #617
Martinjlm
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Originally Posted by arpad_m View Post
Yesterday I took the car out of several months of hibernation and went for a test drive, just to check if things still work, heh. After months of driving an SUV with gigantic windows, I got another "initial" visibility impression, and I swear it's only marginally worse in the Camaro.

I mean, the rear windshield is narrow vertically, but what does one really need to see there? Is a car/truck behind me, either in my lane or my immediate left/right, and if yes, how far, how fast is it approaching and is its driver attentive or not. That's all, I don't need to see square yards of blue sky.

Side mirrors are smaller than the giant truck style ones on the SUV, but again, set correctly I see everything there, except for suckers that cut into my lane right when making a lane change, however, the BSM catches that nicely and it's a potential issue in every car unless it has a glass dome for a cabin.

Finally, front view is widescreen again, but it's no big deal, the useless sky is cut off and all I need to do at stoplights is stop a feet or two ahead of the line. The A pillar is an obstruction, but so is it in every car I've ever had and I'm used to moving my head to compensate, not Camaro specific at all.

My conclusion is that the visibility issue is overblown, it takes a bit of adaptation, but I'd think it's within the realm of normal expectations, every car is slightly different anyway. There definitely is an element of compromise, yet with all the backlash one might think it's unbearable, which is far from the truth. (Oh, and I even have vision problems, yet this is a practical non-issue for me.)
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Originally Posted by ZRacerLE View Post
Overblown indeed
As I often tell my buddies on M6G, I can see more out of a Mustang, but I can see everything I need to see out of my Camaro. I may not see what type of hat the pedestrian crossing into my field of vision is wearing, but I see that there is someone there and I might not want to launch hard when the light changes.
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Old 03-04-2020, 05:50 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
or ...maybe they should have offered a 1LT from the start.

After a life time of buying cars that immediately needed their weaknesses shored up, I’m enjoying a car that needs nothing.

.........
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I think that was the best option...to offer the 1LT from the start. But I think GM most likely really didn't want to go that route. It seems like they really wanted to make every version of the car a capable triple threat without cutting corners.


........
At the point in time that Camaro was being developed and at least the first couple years from launch (ie - when yours truly occupied square footage at the Warren Tech Center) the focus for GM was to focus on vehicle line profitability and average transaction price (ATP). The idea was (and may still be) to maintain the vehicle ATP at a level where the company could still make a profit in the product line, even with reduced volume. With many vehicles, Camaro included, the ATP could be kept high be offering content that competitors couldn’t match. So the transaction price of the base car would always be higher than the competitors, but once you equipped the competitor’s vehicle similarly, Camaro would hold a price advantage and still command a better ATP.

That’s why GM didn’t panic when sales dropped in 18 and 19. When I first joined M6G, there were tons of posts where people said “the dealer won’t move on a Camaro equipped the way I want it so I bought a Mustang because the dealers will work with you.” So now the mantra is “Chevy dealers are throwing money at you because they can’t give away ZL1s”.

Fact of the matter is, GM has already more than likely realized their profit expectations for the Camaro product line. So now, in it’s 5th year with only cosmetic changes plus a 10AT, GM realizes that the normal cycle of product means you have to discount the unchanged product in order to keep sales at an acceptable level.

The ATP strategy worked except for the early recognition that a “base V8” model would probably be a good idea. I actually thought that would see the light of day in 2018, but I am not at all surprised that it wasn’t there at launch.
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Old 03-04-2020, 07:45 AM   #619
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I wish you guys would stop calling the LT1 a 1LT. Actually I wish GM would just name models better and advertise performance...
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:24 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by TheRealJA105 View Post
I wish you guys would stop calling the LT1 a 1LT. Actually I wish GM would just name models better and advertise performance...
I had an easier time figuring out NSA's wifi password than Chevy's naming conventions...
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:36 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
As I often tell my buddies on M6G, I can see more out of a Mustang, but I can see everything I need to see out of my Camaro. I may not see what type of hat the pedestrian crossing into my field of vision is wearing, but I see that there is someone there and I might not want to launch hard when the light changes.
When gordan murray set out to design the perfect sports car, he put the seat in the center, used a huge windshield and big windows in an attempt to maximize visibility.

Is it because you need visibility to drive....no. It’s because the pleasure of driving is improved by visibility. It’s a mantra of mclaren ever since.

I saw just fine out of the camaro, but it certainly had a coffin like experience. That’s what the problem is. From a practical standpoint, it’s not THAT bad. From and an experience perspective, it is bad. The car just makes up for it with insane performance.

If I were to ever buy a camaro, it’d have to be a drop top. This is coming from someone that is obsessed with the alpha chassis and promotes it all the time. The visibility issue is not overblown IMO.
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:55 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by arpad_m View Post
I got another "initial" visibility impression, and I swear it's only marginally worse in the Camaro.



all I need to do at stoplights is stop a feet or two ahead of the line.

it takes a bit of adaptation, but I'd think it's within the realm of normal expectations, every car is slightly different anyway. There definitely is an element of compromise, )
Just some highlights there, you talk about getting used to it, making concessions, adapting to it and having compromise....It might not be as bad as people like to make it out but it is an issue. you said yourself, you have gotten used to it, you have had to stop short at stoplights to see the light and it's got elements of compromise.

Now imagine you have never driven one of these cars before and are comparing it to Mustang and Challenger for the first time ever. The first impression many people have on a short test drive might be that it's significantly worse than the other two. That's what I am getting at. It might be enough of an issue to turn off first time buyers especially in the lower trims when it can't use the performance factor to compensate for other "issues"

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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I was disappointed in the visibility of the car when I first sat in one.
That is exactly what I am saying. First impressions, now obviously it didn't matter because Blaq bought a ZL1 and the performance/features were enough to overcome that initial dislike of the visibility.

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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
At the point in time that Camaro was being developed and at least the first couple years from launch (ie - when yours truly occupied square footage at the Warren Tech Center) the focus for GM was to focus on vehicle line profitability and average transaction price (ATP). The idea was (and may still be) to maintain the vehicle ATP at a level where the company could still make a profit in the product line, even with reduced volume. With many vehicles, Camaro included, the ATP could be kept high be offering content that competitors couldn’t match. So the transaction price of the base car would always be higher than the competitors, but once you equipped the competitor’s vehicle similarly, Camaro would hold a price advantage and still command a better ATP.

That’s why GM didn’t panic when sales dropped in 18 and 19. When I first joined M6G, there were tons of posts where people said “the dealer won’t move on a Camaro equipped the way I want it so I bought a Mustang because the dealers will work with you.” So now the mantra is “Chevy dealers are throwing money at you because they can’t give away ZL1s”.

Fact of the matter is, GM has already more than likely realized their profit expectations for the Camaro product line. So now, in it’s 5th year with only cosmetic changes plus a 10AT, GM realizes that the normal cycle of product means you have to discount the unchanged product in order to keep sales at an acceptable level.

The ATP strategy worked except for the early recognition that a “base V8” model would probably be a good idea. I actually thought that would see the light of day in 2018, but I am not at all surprised that it wasn’t there at launch.
I understand why internally GM would be concerned about ATP because they will know all of the other factors, but I still don't get why companies like to brag about it or why the public is concerned with it. I guess you can see people are opting for higher end trims but without other details to the public it seems like a odd stat. And yes I know a similar argument can be made for just total sales as well

It is funny you mentioned that dealers wouldn't budge but now there is money on the hood. My local chevy dealers are offering big money off on Camaros lol

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Originally Posted by TheRealJA105 View Post
I wish you guys would stop calling the LT1 a 1LT. Actually I wish GM would just name models better and advertise performance...
Yeah the LT1 name was bad. Not sure what else they could have gone with but something else would have been better especially because there is a 1LT trim lol
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Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(

Last edited by shaffe; 03-04-2020 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 03-04-2020, 09:09 AM   #623
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I wish you guys would stop calling the LT1 a 1LT. Actually I wish GM would just name models better and advertise performance...
Someone around here claimed they saw lt1 performance numbers claimed in the back of a dealer pamphlet or something. 0 to 60 was slower than an ss at lile 4.2 vs 4.0 and quater mile was the same 12.3 with the lt1 having a higher claimed trap speed than the ss, 118 for the lt1 vs 116 or so for the ss. Can't remember who posted it.
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Old 03-04-2020, 09:39 AM   #624
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Someone around here claimed they saw lt1 performance numbers claimed in the back of a dealer pamphlet or something. 0 to 60 was slower than an ss at lile 4.2 vs 4.0 and quater mile was the same 12.3 with the lt1 having a higher claimed trap speed than the ss, 118 for the lt1 vs 116 or so for the ss. Can't remember who posted it.
Not surprised, the LT1 comes with all-season tires that are 245 wide front and back.
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Old 03-04-2020, 12:33 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
Just some highlights there, you talk about getting used to it, making concessions, adapting to it and having compromise....It might not be as bad as people like to make it out but it is an issue. you said yourself, you have gotten used to it, you have had to stop short at stoplights to see the light and it's got elements of compromise.
The Camaro makes a bad first impression because the roof is low. As someone that has driven one every day for 3-1/2 year, I can say I never think about visibility other than judging were the right front tire is in a tight parking garage.

The sensation inside is different. Visibility is not a problem. Even seeing stop lights are not an issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
I understand why internally GM would be concerned about ATP because they will know all of the other factors, but I still don't get why companies like to brag about it or why the public is concerned with it. I guess you can see people are opting for higher end trims but without other details to the public it seems like a odd stat. And yes I know a similar argument can be made for just total sales as well

It is funny you mentioned that dealers wouldn't budge but now there is money on the hood. My local chevy dealers are offering big money off on Camaros lol
Its possible to make more money by selling less.

The company I'm with (20 years) is going through a similar transformation. In the past it was all about being the volume leader. Now the focus is on the quality of the sale. The low volume models on the low or high end of the price spectrum isn't where the money is made. Its in the middle.

Why does GM "brag" about ATP? Why does Ford brag about volume?
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Old 03-04-2020, 12:38 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
Just some highlights there, you talk about getting used to it, making concessions, adapting to it and having compromise....It might not be as bad as people like to make it out but it is an issue. you said yourself, you have gotten used to it, you have had to stop short at stoplights to see the light and it's got elements of compromise.

Now imagine you have never driven one of these cars before and are comparing it to Mustang and Challenger for the first time ever. The first impression many people have on a short test drive might be that it's significantly worse than the other two. That's what I am getting at. It might be enough of an issue to turn off first time buyers especially in the lower trims when it can't use the performance factor to compensate for other "issues"
I hear you shaffe, it's just that similar compromises are made with almost every new or different car one drives. Maybe not with the short stops at lights but not having enough power to shoot out when needed, or lacking cooled seats, or perhaps having to get used to body roll the size of Alaska, or a vacuum cleaner engine sound, there is always something that isn't ideal (and if everything is, the price tag will be the silent killer )

Rear visibility is even worse in sedans with two or three bulky rear headrests, yet nobody brings that up... much of this is a perception "game", someone started this "visibility in the Camaro is horrendous" meme and it just won't die.

Oh, and there are subjective preferences, too—I for one wouldn't want to own and see a car every day whose midsection reminds me of a blister (Mustang) or one that looks like a raindrop overall (Porsche), even if that might be better for visibility and the most aerodynamic shape. Overall, there seem to be many people to whom this initial visibility impression matters more, and they buy Mustangs, I have zero problems with that. Other still crave the 70s to 90s style street brute look and thickly padded giant seats, they buy the Challenger. There should be an offering to cater to all these tastes
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Old 03-04-2020, 01:57 PM   #627
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The Camaro makes a bad first impression because the roof is low. As someone that has driven one every day for 3-1/2 year, I can say I never think about visibility other than judging were the right front tire is in a tight parking garage.

The sensation inside is different. Visibility is not a problem. Even seeing stop lights are not an issue


Its possible to make more money by selling less.

The company I'm with (20 years) is going through a similar transformation. In the past it was all about being the volume leader. Now the focus is on the quality of the sale. The low volume models on the low or high end of the price spectrum isn't where the money is made. Its in the middle.

Why does GM "brag" about ATP? Why does Ford brag about volume?
Either way if you think there is an issue or not with the visibility there is a perception of it. And for someone that has never driven one, if that's all the hear about it they are going to believe it even more especially on a quick test drive.

I totally get why on the inside they would focus on ATP. They would have all the info on costs, margins all that stuff. On the outside looking in, I don't see it as that valuable of information because of the missing variables.

At least with sales numbers I feel I can make some better guesses about how its doing especially when combined with data like days in inventory.

I am fully aware it is possible to earn more while selling less and like you said the key is somewhere in the middle.
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Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(

Last edited by shaffe; 03-04-2020 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:18 PM   #628
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Either way if you think there is an issue or not with the visibility there is a perception of it. And for someone that has never driven one, if that's all the hear about it they are going to believe it even more especially on a quick test drive.

I totally get why on the inside they would focus on ATP. They would have all the info on costs, margins all that stuff. On the outside looking in, I don't see it as that valuable of information because of the missing variables.

At least with sales numbers I feel I can make some better guesses about how its doing especially when combined with data like days in inventory.

I am fully aware it is possible to earn more while selling less and like you said the key is somewhere in the middle.
We agree actually. The bad first impression and repetitive bad press combine to eliminate the Camaro as a choice for some.

The reality of driving one is that visibility isn't an actual problem while driving the car. It never gets that far with some and they choose another cars, like the Mustang, that are only marginally different.
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:24 PM   #629
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We agree actually. The bad first impression and repetitive bad press combine to eliminate the Camaro as a choice for some.

The reality of driving one is that visibility isn't an actual problem while driving the car. It never gets that far with some and they choose another cars, like the Mustang, that are only marginally different.
Exactly. It's all in that first impression and if they go in with a preconceived notion they are probably going to believe it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:30 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
....
I understand why internally GM would be concerned about ATP because they will know all of the other factors, but I still don't get why companies like to brag about it or why the public is concerned with it.....
It is funny you mentioned that dealers wouldn't budge but now there is money on the hood. My local chevy dealers are offering big money off on Camaros lol



Yeah the LT1 name was bad. Not sure what else they could have gone with but something else would have been better especially because there is a 1LT trim lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
....

Why does GM "brag" about ATP? Why does Ford brag about volume?
GM doesn’t brag about ATP. GM does grade vehicle executive performance / compensation with ATP as a factor. GM actually does not publicly discuss ATP any more than they discuss future products. I’ve mentioned it more than a few times, so therein may lie the confusion
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