[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

BUT, all of those things wil be EXACTLY THE SAME for any given buyer. It's not like an individual would pay one tax rate for car A and a different tax rate for car B. Each person would have ONE and only ONE value for all those values you quoted above.

So for any given individual, those are pretty fixed costs (or fixed rates in the case of taxes).

AND, NONE of those factors were ever included in the discussion. It's not like anyong is saying John paid this and Fred paid that, when John and Fred live in different states, and John only paid more because his tax rate was higher...

AND AND, not only that, if you have a fix tax rate of 5% or something, you will pay EVEN MORE for a more expensive car that includes ADMs. It's not like you pay taxes on the MSRP, you pay taxes on the SALES PRICE. 5% on $20k ADM is another $1000 on top! And, if you get the car under MSRP, you pay even less in taxes too. So, it is completely unrealistic to NOT include ADMs when they are so high.

Sure, ADMs of a few grand or ADMs that dissapear in a few months can be ignored, but anything over $5k must be brought into the equation, especially if they last long. Otherwise you are nowhere near the real price that folks will actually pay.

Yes those things will be the same for me for Car A or Car B- but they will be different for you than they are for me. That is what I am getting at. the only thing that would be the same for you and me would be the MSRP

But individual tax rates will vary, and when it is collected some peopled may or may not include that in their OTD price (because that is another thing a lot of people differ on for some reason)

If my brother in law and I buy the exact same car, the exact same day, from the same dealership get the same price, same financing deal his car is going to be more expensive OTD then mine is because of the county he lives in. Depending on the price of the car, that could range from a few hundred bucks to over a thousand dollars difference in the final OTD price.

Whiteboy, what is your sales tax rate if you bought a new car?

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yes those things will be the same for me for Car A or Car B- but they will be different for you than they are for me. That is what I am getting at. the only thing that would be the same for you and me would be the MSRP

But individual tax rates will vary, and when it is collected some peopled may or may not include that in their OTD price (because that is another thing a lot of people differ on for some reason)

If my brother in law and I buy the exact same car, the exact same day, from the same dealership get the same price, same financing deal his car is going to be more expensive OTD then mine is because of the county he lives in. Depending on the price of the car, that could range from a few hundred bucks to over a thousand dollars difference in the final OTD price.

Whiteboy, what is your sales tax rate if you bought a new car?

Msrp will be the same for sure, and while the amount might vary some, another constant would be that both of you will have an adm attached to that msrp... if all variebles you listed are controlled or not, an adm will still be added on regardless.

[BlaqWhole]

When comparing the performance, MSRP to MSRP is the best bet because it represents what the manufacturer gives you for the price. Or it represents what the manufacturer has put into the car.

When the discussion turns to purchasing the car then you gotta compare real world pricing. 2015 - 2017 GTs were all selling way under MSRP for the most part. Camaros are selling for under MSRP. However the Shelbys were selling well above MSRP by a significant amount. An amount that could even cause a creditor to choose not to finance the car. Or you could say by an amount that you'd be able to buy the competing vehicle AND another vehicle. So in that comparison, even if Johnny somewhere claims he got his at MSRP, you cannot realistically look at MSRP.

If you say "hey dude, Ford built a car to compete with the ZLE and it costs $94K" then you are correct. If you say "hey dude, Ford built a car to compete with the ZLE and it costs $94K...but if you want to buy one you're probably gonna end up paying over $100K because of markups" then you are correct. Both pieces of info are necessary. How much does it cost compared to the competition and how much I can actually get it for.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

When comparing the performance, MSRP to MSRP is the best bet because it represents what the manufacturer gives you for the price. Or it represents what the manufacturer has put into the car.

When the discussion turns to purchasing the car then you gotta compare real world pricing. 2015 - 2017 GTs were all selling way under MSRP for the most part. Camaros are selling for under MSRP. However the Shelbys were selling well above MSRP by a significant amount. An amount that could even cause a creditor to choose not to finance the car. Or you could say by an amount that you'd be able to buy the competing vehicle AND another vehicle. So in that comparison, even if Johnny somewhere claims he got his at MSRP, you cannot realistically look at MSRP.

If you say "hey dude, Ford built a car to compete with the ZLE and it costs $94K" then you are correct. If you say "hey dude, Ford built a car to compete with the ZLE and it costs $94K...but if you want to buy one you're probably gonna end up paying over $100K because of markups" then you are correct. Both pieces of info are necessary. How much does it cost compared to the competition and how much I can actually get it for.

This pretty much nailed it.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yes those things will be the same for me for Car A or Car B- but they will be different for you than they are for me. That is what I am getting at. the only thing that would be the same for you and me would be the MSRP

But individual tax rates will vary, and when it is collected some peopled may or may not include that in their OTD price (because that is another thing a lot of people differ on for some reason)

If my brother in law and I buy the exact same car, the exact same day, from the same dealership get the same price, same financing deal his car is going to be more expensive OTD then mine is because of the county he lives in. Depending on the price of the car, that could range from a few hundred bucks to over a thousand dollars difference in the final OTD price.

Whiteboy, what is your sales tax rate if you bought a new car?

I completely get what you are getting at, but again, no one on any of these forums are saying "I paid this (which includes taxes tags title, etc...)", so they are out of the equation. And for any given person, those factors are fixed, where the agreed upon price is not. I can shop around for different dealers to find a better deal, but I am not going to move to a differenet county or state to pay less in taxes.

So, when we talk about price in the fourms, it's a bit more "real world" to discuss MSRP +/- ADMs and discounts.

For example, I would include a $5000 incentive whent talking price, BUT I would not include a $1000 discount I personnaly got because I already own a Chevy (frequent buyer discount) or because I was in the military.

In other words, let's say you live where there is no sales tax, and I pay 6%. Then you buy a stripped out GT500 with no options, and I price a ZL1 optioned up to the same final cost not including taxes. You can't argue you got a better value becuase you paid less. Why? Because if I bought the GT500 and you bought the ZL1 you would STILL pay less.

In math terms, things like price and ADMs are VEHICLE depenedant, and taxes, tags, title are location dependant.

So, ADMs may convince me to buy another car, and incentives may convince me to buy this car, taxes won't make any person decide one car over another. It's not like you pay taxes on a Ford where you don't pay taxes on a Chevy... But, ADMs will most likely be paid on a GT500, where they won't be paid on a ZL1.

And I pay 6% Maryland sales tax on the car's cost MINUS trade-in value. So, if I buy a ZL1 and paid $70k and traded in a car for $20k, I pay 6% of $50k...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I completely get what you are getting at, but again, no one on any of these forums are saying "I paid this (which includes taxes tags title, etc...)", so they are out of the equation. And for any given person, those factors are fixed, where the agreed upon price is not. I can shop around for different dealers to find a better deal, but I am not going to move to a differenet county or state to pay less in taxes.

So, when we talk about price in the fourms, it's a bit more "real world" to discuss MSRP +/- ADMs and discounts.

For example, I would include a $5000 incentive whent talking price, BUT I would not include a $1000 discount I personnaly got because I already own a Chevy (frequent buyer discount) or because I was in the military.

In other words, let's say you live where there is no sales tax, and I pay 6%. Then you buy a stripped out GT500 with no options, and I price a ZL1 optioned up to the same final cost not including taxes. You can't argue you got a better value becuase you paid less. Why? Because if I bought the GT500 and you bought the ZL1 you would STILL pay less.

In math terms, things like price and ADMs are VEHICLE depenedant, and taxes, tags, title are location dependant.

So, ADMs may convince me to buy another car, and incentives may convince me to buy this car, taxes won't make any person decide one car over another. It's not like you pay taxes on a Ford where you don't pay taxes on a Chevy... But, ADMs will most likely be paid on a GT500, where they won't be paid on a ZL1.

And I pay 6% Maryland sales tax on the car's cost MINUS trade-in value. So, if I buy a ZL1 and paid $70k and traded in a car for $20k, I pay 6% of $50k...

Yep we are on the same page

I totally get what you are saying. I think some people have thrown in there OTD price - can't remember who it was but they got their ZL1 for like 58 ish OTD. and others throw in what prices are like around them which sometimes has regional rebates or what not applied Even with ADMs that can be a regional thing, your local dealer may only throw 5K adjustment on a car where as mine might throw a 30K adjustment on it

That's why I just think it's easier to talk MSRP in this type of discussion because it will be constant throughout the country.

In my county in IL, we pay 7.25% sales tax and now only 10K of trade in gets a tax break. So if I was in your scenario I would be paying 7.25% on 60K

Your real world cost would 53,000 mine would be 54350

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I think msrp to msrp should be listed for sure in the stats, as it will remian constant even when adm's fizzle out, but the actual street value prices at the time of the review should be mentioned and noted in the written parts of the reviews. Also financing, paying cash, taxes and what not wouldn't really have any impact on one car being way more expensive in real world prices.

Exactly this

[whiteboyblues2001]

In other Mustang news, Lebanon Ford is offering brand new 2020 Mustangs with a s/c up 1000HP for $55k.

For those who just want big power, and not the Shelby badge, this is a bargin.

https://www.lebanonfordperformance.c...ang-for-54995/

[Laststandard]

Jesus, they'll build you one on a base GT.. 1000hp on what, 235 section rear tires? Can't wait to see the Cars and Coffee vids of those..

No warranty on the 1000hp ones, either.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

In other Mustang news, Lebanon Ford is offering brand new 2020 Mustangs with a s/c up 1000HP for $55k.

For those who just want big power, and not the Shelby badge, this is a bargin.

https://www.lebanonfordperformance.c...ang-for-54995/

But then you gotta worry about this...

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32189/...wdy-test-drive

[oldman]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Msrp will be the same for sure, and while the amount might vary some, another constant would be that both of you will have an adm attached to that msrp... if all variebles you listed are controlled or not, an adm will still be added on regardless.

MRP is the best comparison except for cars like the GT500, because Ford uses this car to give their dealers a big bonus in a roundabout way. MSRP for cars that I know and buy has some meaning, because one can purchase the vehicle for or below MSRP. Contrast this to the GT500, MSRP is MEANINGLESS because none are purchased at MSRP. So a meaningful data point can't be compared to a data point that has no meaning. The metric is broke. I can, in general, buy a Chevy at or below MSRP vs NO GT500 can be purchased at or below MSRP, on average $20K to $50K have no idea) is the ADM depending how hot you want it and when. This is not trivial we are talking about a Mustang, not some Buggatti where I don't think they quibble much over things like few 100gs here or there.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

Jesus, they'll build you one on a base GT.. 1000hp on what, 235 section rear tires? Can't wait to see the Cars and Coffee vids of those..

No warranty on the 1000hp ones, either.

Yep, because smokey burnouts ability is what sells the GT500 in specific and any Muscle car in general (BTW the GT500 muscle car unique in its inability to perform smokey burnouts do so and live, IMO). The GT500 would sell 10x the number if it was only a highschool package (stripes wings etc) an auto with line lock and two to four extra sets of cheopo all season tires for the rear IMO of course, add in a fancy shipping crate jack (Demon), no rear seat but a place to store all your burnout tires and supplies would be appreciated.

As a complete aside, if somebody asked me how long with a SS, GT, Zl1, etc live as a brunout special, I would reply that most mortals would go broke on buying rear tires first. The GT500 IMO probably could destroy the DCT in under a day give enough motivation (plenty of idiots in the world). I would speculate that Ford already has a mandatory patch on the way to prevent or limit engine rev to WOT power to 3500 RPM whenever the brake is touched.

My cars and coffee group features a couple that own Hellcats, honestly you think they ever turn off the traction control and run through the gears? The other one is the ZLE with drag pack.... OK then.

So I envision the 1000 HP setup is for the young guy with his first accounting job, that has to be scary.

[BlaqWhole]

I think the Lebanon Mustangs are actually a great alternative to the GT500. Add the Premium Package (if it still is a thing), upgrade the axles and suspension, throw a good tire on it, and you'll have a very fast Mustang that can handle decently. On top of that you get a warranty. And the GT engines are (relatively) cheap to replace in case something happens. It might not match a ZL1 around a track but it'll outgun a GT500 and RE up top. That is the way I would go.

Might be worth looking in to...hmm...

[oldman]

Hennesy (not indorsing them) says 808 with supercharger, fuel and CAI for the 5.0, 750 for a lt1, a forged LT1 stroker is 1000 hp. No package upgrades the axles, I know crazy right sell a 1000 HP car with stock axles... Wonder why more people are not dead.
The gt500 is 1000 HP with pulley and tune, 1200 with twin turbo.