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Old 11-21-2021, 04:12 PM   #43
Martinjlm
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Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
I was pointing out that BEV, and net zero, is a little misleading. The manufacturer of BEV isnít more ecologically better than manufacturing ICE, GM (and others) are using the transition to make other offsetting improvements. As youíve said, these could also be done with ICE.

I was asking about the end of life to understand if the full cycle is being considered when we talk about the efficiency of BEVs. Does seems soÖ

https://www.era-environmental.com/bl...icle-batteries

Similar with BEV resale or life expectancy. Will owners be looking at a large expenditure at 110k? Öor will the life of a BEV be significantly less than an iCE?

I havenít been interested in BEV so I donít know, but it does seem as if the entire picture isnít being presented through those rose colored glasses.
I would say that it is not totally misleading. It may be somewhat misleading in the way that I am responding to specific questions about product and specific questions about manufacturing. So letís just pick on GM for a minute.

PRODUCT:
GM has specifically said that they aspire to produce only zero emissions passenger vehicles by 2035. They are clearly saying their passenger vehicles will be zero emissions, which means BEV or Fuel Cell. Those are the only two technologies that deliver what the industry defines as zero emissions vehicles.

MANUFACTURING:
GM has specifically said that they will operate all of their North American facilities to be Carbon Neutral by 2050.

Product is about energy usage with low or zero carbon emissions. Manufacturing is about carbon neutral. Not ZERO carbon, but carbon neutral, which means the NET of their manufacturing operations will be zero carbon added. For operations where carbon is emitted, they will have other operations that remove carbon from the environment.

Other manufacturers are making similar declarations, but GMís are the clearest and most quotable. As GM and other manufacturers move towards carbon neutrality, the process for making vehicles will be cleaner than it has ever been in history. Period. Despite what Andy Palmer is able to point out now about a specific Volvo vehicle. Ford, Daimler, BMW, Honda, VW have all also made Carbon Neutral declarations, with most of them setting 2050 as the timeframe. BMW has set it at 2045. GM is the only one that has said when they expect to produce only zero emissions passenger vehicles and even they have left the door open to continuing production of ICE based commercial vehicles. They have also added a new company, BrightDrop, specifically to provide BEV commercial vehicles, so thereís that. Theyíre also still involved with fuel cell development which will eventually bring zero emissions capability to Class 5 - Class 8 over the road trucks.
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Old 11-21-2021, 05:51 PM   #44
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I feel though these high number of battery vehicles (Hummer EV looks to be a major offender) are getting a free pass though and of course the government is going to incentivize it. And to me there is no way EVs will have the level of performance they do if they have to significantly cut back on batteries. Even though you see a new hyped-up, click-bait article on batteries every day. And like you said electricity is cheap right now.

I still think the shortage is already happening, and its very convenient that it already happened during the "supply chain crisis".
You're also looking at this through the lens of lithium-ion batteries. These batteries will likely not be long term battery type of EV's.

Think of them as the giant big block V8's that gave no crap about emissions back in the 60's. Does that still exist today?
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Old 11-22-2021, 10:02 AM   #45
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I would like to see GM and the major mfrs. attempt to sell EVs in their truck applications. This is the area where EVs may fail. GM and Ford's best selling vehicles are unashamedly ICE equipped. There are very good attributes with EVs; However, they compromise too much of all of the good values and accomplishments that were made by ICE vehicles. Additionally I still feel that the technology is a half century behind ICE vehicles in terms of reliability and real world use.
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Old 11-22-2021, 10:17 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by lbls1 View Post
I would like to see GM and the major mfrs. attempt to sell EVs in their truck applications. This is the area where EVs may fail. GM and Ford's best selling vehicles are unashamedly ICE equipped. There are very good attributes with EVs; However, they compromise too much of all of the good values and accomplishments that were made by ICE vehicles. Additionally I still feel that the technology is a half century behind ICE vehicles in terms of reliability and real world use.
Here's some info on EV trucks...

https://insideevs.com/news/549185/au...v-pickup-ford/

They still seem shy about how heavy duty they are, or how much they can tow. I think that is where ICE will have the advantage for a long time.
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Old 11-22-2021, 11:39 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by lbls1 View Post
I would like to see GM and the major mfrs. attempt to sell EVs in their truck applications. This is the area where EVs may fail. GM and Ford's best selling vehicles are unashamedly ICE equipped. There are very good attributes with EVs; However, they compromise too much of all of the good values and accomplishments that were made by ICE vehicles. Additionally I still feel that the technology is a half century behind ICE vehicles in terms of reliability and real world use.
Well, there is the Hummer EV truck that is in launch mode now. Then the Ford F-150 Lightning that comes out in the first or second quarter of 2022. Iíll be going to CES in January where Mary Barra will be the keynote speaker and will introduce the Silverado EV. Since most of the first round of BEV trucks is focused on the half-ton segment, the 3/4 and one ton segments will continue to be primarily diesel for a good while.
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Old 11-22-2021, 05:47 PM   #48
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I'm seriously considering the Edition One Hummer EV right now.

I've never purchased a car as an investment until now, simply due to the climate. Dealers are adding huge mark ups on specialty cars right now and they are prohibited from doing this on the Hummer.

Just might be a good time to pull the trigger and not get killed driving off the lot.
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Old 11-22-2021, 06:07 PM   #49
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I think this is relevant to the discussion. Dodge as a brand they are in a unique situation unlike the Camaro or Mustang. With the Mustang or the Camaro if those cars go away or go full EV they are under the same brand name as the their trucks IE F Series or Silverados. Dodge that is not the case they have the Challenger, Charger and the Durango.

The Dodge Brand's Ceo Tim Kuniskis has a big problem he has to deal with a split consumer base one that despises a full EV in the performance vehicles they have available and those that are willing too. I doubt Dodge can afford to lose that many customers and still remain relevant to Stellantis.

Here is a quote Kuniskis made recently.
"I'm juggling knives because I've gotta keep two different huge factions happy because at some point those two factions will converge. The problem is no one knows when they will converge. My job is to provide confidence, over the next 24 months, that we're gonna do this."

I will be linking a motortrend article below but this paragraph is below the quote above.

Dodge will reveal three vehicles of significance to all buyers, wherever they fit on the spectrum, Kuniskis says. Other pending vehicles will appeal to the more niche brotherhood of muscle, appeasing them even as plans have already been made to stop making the high-performance gasoline-engine vehicles Dodge is known for today.

This is something I predicted with Dodge when Stellantis wanted to make the move to EVs and we aren't even at Ram yet which I think will be their biggest hurdle to go Full EV since that is their US markets bread and butter although they can fit an EV to go with the ICE counterparts easier than Dodge.

I wish Dodge and Stellantis the best of luck because convincing a big customer base to buy something they don't want to buy probably is not going to work in the time frame they want it too. This isn't like the Point a to b Vehicles like a Toyota Corolla where no one cares if it goes electric as long as they have a garage/place to charge it at home and it looks like they are starting to see this now where Stellantis should have seen it before.

Makes you wonder how many Mustang or Camaro buyers would readily accept a full EV option of those cars or in the Camaro's case there might be a replacement. I would not be surprised if Ford is paying attention to this I wonder if GM is too.


You can lead a horse to water.....

Here is the article from Motortrend.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/dodg...Yvz17Yo5lVrbeU

Last edited by Devstrike; 11-22-2021 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:18 PM   #50
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You're also looking at this through the lens of lithium-ion batteries. These batteries will likely not be long term battery type of EV's.

Think of them as the giant big block V8's that gave no crap about emissions back in the 60's. Does that still exist today?
I would actually disagree, there have been no drastic changes and no radical innovative changes, just very small incremental changes. However, there have been huge changes and innovations in emissions controls but the market never forced huge changes as far as efficiency.

So just like HCCI has been pushed as the holy grail of gas simplicity and emissions with diesel efficiency, and all the promises of camless valve control in the early 2000s, they were just simply going to be too expensive for production and I don't see why it will be any different with batteries. Elon's $35k promise is almost $60k now.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:58 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by cmitchell17 View Post
I would actually disagree, there have been no drastic changes and no radical innovative changes, just very small incremental changes. However, there have been huge changes and innovations in emissions controls but the market never forced huge changes as far as efficiency.

So just like HCCI has been pushed as the holy grail of gas simplicity and emissions with diesel efficiency, and all the promises of camless valve control in the early 2000s, they were just simply going to be too expensive for production and I don't see why it will be any different with batteries. Elon's $35k promise is almost $60k now.
Dang!! I had forgotten all about HCCI. And camless. Iím wondering if Solid State will be the HCCI of BEVs. The company that claims to be the farthest ahead in development of it is also the company that is the least enthusiastic about BEV. Iíll continue to watch this one.
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Old 11-25-2021, 09:42 PM   #52
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EV's will slowly kill the car market over time.
One of my biggest arguments against EV is the uncertainty of electrical infrastructure in the future. For example, what about all the people in the U.S. who live in apartments/condos? They can't simply plug their EV into an outlet in their garage, driveway, etc. and have it fully charged in the morning. I'm not sure how many people live in apartments but I'm guessing it's near 20% of the U.S. population. Does that mean all apartment parking spots will have an outlet in the future? What about all the high-rise apartments/condos in San Francisco, New York, Chicago, etc.? Is there going to be a charging outlet every 30 feet on the sidewalks in the future? Who's going to pay for all this to make it happen?
How long will it take to charge EV's in the future? With an ICE car, only 5 minutes of fueling up will give you an instant 350+ miles of driving. When will the EV battery technology be able to claim that in the future?
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Old 11-26-2021, 09:15 AM   #53
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EV's will slowly kill the car market over time.
One of my biggest arguments against EV is the uncertainty of electrical infrastructure in the future. For example, what about all the people in the U.S. who live in apartments/condos? They can't simply plug their EV into an outlet in their garage, driveway, etc. and have it fully charged in the morning. I'm not sure how many people live in apartments but I'm guessing it's near 20% of the U.S. population. Does that mean all apartment parking spots will have an outlet in the future? What about all the high-rise apartments/condos in San Francisco, New York, Chicago, etc.? Is there going to be a charging outlet every 30 feet on the sidewalks in the future? Who's going to pay for all this to make it happen?
How long will it take to charge EV's in the future? With an ICE car, only 5 minutes of fueling up will give you an instant 350+ miles of driving. When will the EV battery technology be able to claim that in the future?
The apartment issue is the reason I counsel my clients that BEV will not get to 100% saturation in our lifetime. Still, it will most likely be over 50% by 2040. Hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids will split the difference. As for beyond 2040, development will continue on several technologies to bridge the gap.
Eventually, Fuel Cells will gain some traction in the US, but for right now the inability to place refueling stations strategically across the country will hold it back. Stations are expensive and thereís not enough vehicles to use them to keep them in business. Commercial vehicles will be the first real play for FCEV. Yes, I know about Clarity and Mirai, and Hyundai Nexo. Those are all severely limited compliance credit vehicles. They are only available in certain specific areas and cannot travel far beyond their home locations because they donít have fueling options.
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Old 11-27-2021, 11:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
EV's will slowly kill the car market over time.
One of my biggest arguments against EV is the uncertainty of electrical infrastructure in the future. For example, what about all the people in the U.S. who live in apartments/condos? They can't simply plug their EV into an outlet in their garage, driveway, etc. and have it fully charged in the morning. I'm not sure how many people live in apartments but I'm guessing it's near 20% of the U.S. population. Does that mean all apartment parking spots will have an outlet in the future? What about all the high-rise apartments/condos in San Francisco, New York, Chicago, etc.? Is there going to be a charging outlet every 30 feet on the sidewalks in the future? Who's going to pay for all this to make it happen?
How long will it take to charge EV's in the future? With an ICE car, only 5 minutes of fueling up will give you an instant 350+ miles of driving. When will the EV battery technology be able to claim that in the future?
But if you go look at all the marketing material and news articles they will have you believe that you will be able to charge a battery faster than a gas fill up.

I don't think most people realize there is a difference in common household voltage and power and higher voltage/amperage stuff that's actually needed for "fast" charging, and by "fast" charging that still takes 30+ min at least.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:05 AM   #55
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I've argued to avoid the first gens of these EVs, and not become an early adopter. Look at the Bolts, for instance. Hi prices and rushes to market can be a bad combination. A few years worth of good reviews and happy customers, and reduced pricing would be needed before jumping in.

Here's another one about Mustang MachE. What bugs me about the EVs is all the tech that makes them software dependent, and the "owner" has no control. In the below article, the 270 mile range EV Mustang soon became a 200 mile range EV Mustang. I think Teslas and others also control the downloads and software controls, not the owner. The possibilities of unwanted limits and restrictions are grotesque and unfathomable and probably not what the customer bargained for.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/othe...?ocid=msedgntp

Also, cold, real world cold weather performance and range issues have yet to be disproved.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:40 AM   #56
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Not to mention the "clean" energy needed to power these things won't come cheap. Pushbacks are already growing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gr...?ocid=msedgntp
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