Cadillac Reveals 2020 CT4-V and CT5-V

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by lbls1

I recall the LS6 and LS2 CTSVs (naturally aspirated) I don't recall a supercharged version (unless you're talking about the Seville-replacement sedan with the supercharged Northstar, who's name escapes me....STSV???); Those sedans were nothing to sneeze at either. The ATS was more powerful and probably quicker than the early CTSVs, but also realize the distinct difference in sound and feel of a v8 vs a v6 or 4 cyl. engine. Although some may not care, but there is quite a difference in the sound and perception (but not necessarily a performance advantage) between the 8 cyl. and smaller engines.

Yes, the 1st gen CTS-Vs were LS6 then LS2 powered at 400 hp either way. The STS-V and the XLR-V had the supercharged Northstars.

I didn't know this until I checked wikipedia just now but it turns out that the STS-V was the most powerful of the early -V cars at 469 hp. If I were to have guessed, I'd have figured the 6 figure sports car that was the XLR-V would have been the most powerful Cadillac at the time but it used a 443 hp version of the supercharged Northstar.


And yes, subjectively V8s are more satisfying. But my point was that in terms of outright power a V6 shouldn't be dismissed automatically. If its a pretty mundane turbo6 that they're pretending is 'high output' ... well, thats a different story all together. But a 500ish hp TTV6 in the CT4-V would probably have made most people quite happy. And that would have been doable with an updated version of the LF4 from the ATS-V. Instead, they didn't even put a V6 into the CT4-V. They used the 4 cylinder from the Silverado

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by RLHMARINES

From what I've been led to believe is that the CT6 is the natural CTS replacement since they where closer in size. The CT5 is to be slotted as a slightly larger ATS and the CT4 is to be slotted as a slightly smaller ATS in the lineup for better coverage.

Actually the CT6 was originally intended to be a flagship car, competing with 7-Series. CTS was to be the 5-Series competitor, ATS the 3-Series competitor. That is how they align in terms of size. Now, when it comes to pricing CT6 aligns more with 5-Series and CTS / CT5 align more with 3-Series and ATS / CT4 aligns more with 2-Series pricing. This is part of the reason the competitor alignment is so confused. There may or may not be a larger flagship sedan (CT7?) off the same architecture as CT6.

[RLHMARINES]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Actually the CT6 was originally intended to be a flagship car, competing with 7-Series. CTS was to be the 5-Series competitor, ATS the 3-Series competitor. That is how they align in terms of size. Now, when it comes to pricing CT6 aligns more with 5-Series and CTS / CT5 align more with 3-Series and ATS / CT4 aligns more with 2-Series pricing. This is part of the reason the competitor alignment is so confused. There may or may not be a larger flagship sedan (CT7?) off the same architecture as CT6.

Thanks for the insider clarification...

I always believed that to be true but in the case of the ATS and its rear leg room complaints by the auto media made it out to be lacking against the 3 series and c class which had grown larger.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The problem with that analogy is that the CT5 is replacing the CTS, not getting added to the lineup along side it. The CT4 is replacing the ATS. So people are perfectly justified in expecting the CT5-V to be roughly equivalent to the current CTS-V.

Oh, I missed that part... that changes everything.

Now I see the issue.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Yes, the 1st gen CTS-Vs were LS6 then LS2 powered at 400 hp either way. The STS-V and the XLR-V had the supercharged Northstars.

I didn't know this until I checked wikipedia just now but it turns out that the STS-V was the most powerful of the early -V cars at 469 hp. If I were to have guessed, I'd have figured the 6 figure sports car that was the XLR-V would have been the most powerful Cadillac at the time but it used a 443 hp version of the supercharged Northstar.


And yes, subjectively V8s are more satisfying. But my point was that in terms of outright power a V6 shouldn't be dismissed automatically. If its a pretty mundane turbo6 that they're pretending is 'high output' ... well, thats a different story all together. But a 500ish hp TTV6 in the CT4-V would probably have made most people quite happy. And that would have been doable with an updated version of the LF4 from the ATS-V. Instead, they didn't even put a V6 into the CT4-V. They used the 4 cylinder from the Silverado

From what I remember, I recalled that Cadillac was at a disadvantage at around 2004, because both Mercedes and BMW had 500 hp rwd sedans (I may be a year earlier...it could've been 2005). The CTS was a great sedan, but it was still early in its production and it was having quality problems, specifically the rear end. Cadillac was at least 100 hp down from its competitors, so this may have spurned them to ramp up the STS to at least come closer to the competition. I also remembered a friend's relative that bought a brand new Mercedes E?63...or the 500 hp sedan during this time, and how impressed I was with it. '09 was Cadillac's redemption year, and they've been enjoying the fruits of its victory...at least up to now.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The problem with that analogy is that the CT5 is replacing the CTS, not getting added to the lineup along side it. The CT4 is replacing the ATS. So people are perfectly justified in expecting the CT5-V to be roughly equivalent to the current CTS-V.



Imagine if with the next gen Camaro, they no longer offered an SS. It goes base 4, V6, then straight to ZL1. But now that ZL1 has a regular NA V8 (LT2?) for about 40 grand. Thats akin to what Cadillac is doing. Moving the top performance name down to a mild performance model.

I just caught this so let me skip to the Camaro analogy. In my honest opinion this move would seriously compromise Camaro, and could possibly hurt the model against Mustang and Challenger. The SS would be sorely missed (it might even make me run out and get one more, as if I needed another Camaro). The ZL1 would be reduced to a bad joke. The greatness of the ZL1's power and performance reduced to a natural aspirated v8 (which isn't bad if you are talking about LT1) would be difficult to explain and to rationalize, given its demonstrated prowess at the Nurburgring (sp) and in their past promotion of ZL1. This would be a huge plunge from 650 hp to 450 hp. I would much rather Chevrolet dropping the ZL1, even the 'SS than to make them performance Camaros in name only.

I do believe that GM is signaling the decline in V8 size and power; It is definitely a real event on the horizon (like the end of the muscle era of 1970). I feel that Chevrolet will need to develop new and different performance themes to reflect the change in engine and horsepower technology. Cadillac may need to change their outlook in handling their performance cars as well, so as not to alienate their customers by putting out waning performance cars.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The problem with that analogy is that the CT5 is replacing the CTS, not getting added to the lineup along side it. The CT4 is replacing the ATS. So people are perfectly justified in expecting the CT5-V to be roughly equivalent to the current CTS-V.



Imagine if with the next gen Camaro, they no longer offered an SS. It goes base 4, V6, then straight to ZL1. But now that ZL1 has a regular NA V8 (LT2?) for about 40 grand. Thats akin to what Cadillac is doing. Moving the top performance name down to a mild performance model.

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

The Camaro pecking order has bounced around over the years.

1st Gen-The 396SS was the most powerful Camaro you could purchase from the factory, before the introduction of the '69 COPO Camaro
2nd Gen-The SS was at the top
3rd Gen-The SS didn't even exist
4th Gen-The SS was back and was, again the most powerful
5th Gen-The SS was third, behind the Z/28 and the ZL1
6th Gen-The SS is behind the ZL1 and ZL1-1LE

Still no comments on my "Camaro Pecking Order" post...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

Still no comments on my "Camaro Pecking Order" post...

Correct, because my post wasn't really about the SS. The ZL1 currently holds a place in the Camaro lineup akin to what the -V cars have in Cadillac. Vsports were similar to what the SS is. So, in creating a hypothetical scenario where the SS model goes away and its role is filled by the ZL1 I put what Cadillac is doing into contemporary Camaro terms so that a Camaro audience could see it a bit better. lbls1's post above yours is exactly what I was trying to evoke, because I expect a similar reaction among the Cadillac fanboys.



What the Camaro SS was like decades ago is irrelevant to the point I was making, so I didn't comment on it.

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Correct, because my post wasn't really about the SS. The ZL1 currently holds a place in the Camaro lineup akin to what the -V cars have in Cadillac. Vsports were similar to what the SS is. So, in creating a hypothetical scenario where the SS model goes away and its role is filled by the ZL1 I put what Cadillac is doing into contemporary Camaro terms so that a Camaro audience could see it a bit better. lbls1's post above yours is exactly what I was trying to evoke, because I expect a similar reaction among the Cadillac fanboys.



What the Camaro SS was like decades ago is irrelevant to the point I was making, so I didn't comment on it.

Even though GM has bounced the (Camaro) SS moniker around like a Tasmanian Devil on a trampoline over the past 6 decades...

Camaro SS:.................................................. .....Cadillac V:
1st Gen-Most powerful...................................-Most powerful
2nd Gen-Most powerful..................................-Most powerful
3rd Gen-Nonexistent......................................-Most powerful
4th Gen-Most powerful...................................-Anticipated to be 2nd most powerful
5th Gen-3rd most powerful
6th Gen-3rd most powerful

Gotcha!

[Martinjlm]

Watch the attached video. Mark Phelan of the Detroit Free Press is interviewing Ken Morris at the CT4-V / CTV-5 reveal. Ken was very instrumental in the fact that V-Series exists at all and was driving one of the camouflaged cars at the Grand Prix (Mark Reuss was driving the other). Ken's comments start at about 0:35. But listen closely to what he says at 0:45. He laid it right out that there will be two levels of V-Series and that the one that was introduced was for people who want to drive the car but not be overwhelmed by the power. He pretty much acknowledged that a much more powerful V is coming.

Now, why GM chose this particular way to roll that out? Who knows.

https://www.freep.com/videos/money/c...ns/1293993001/

[KMPrenger]

A more powerful version....that's all good and dandy. We expect it.

The naming execution is still just bad. Can't get around it.

[shaffe]

What he said ^

They really botched the roll out of this one

[DRKS1D3]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

A more powerful version....that's all good and dandy. We expect it.

The naming execution is still just bad. Can't get around it.

Originally Posted by shaffe

What he said ^

They really botched the roll out of this one

Agreed 100%.

GM should have put out a press release, prior to the unveil, and said, "The "V" will no longer be at the apex of the Cadillac stable; however, we have some new luxury muscle coming down the pipe that will cure your desire for more horsepower and all-out performance.".

So many people were anticipating the CT4-V and CT5-V, only to be blindsided. I believe pure shock has to do with a portion of the backlash. Nobody, outside of GM Headquarters, knew of this change. Keeping it under wraps, did them no favors.

All I know is that whatever they are planning, it better be big...really big. A large portion of the GM faithful are quite disgruntled and confused.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by DRKS1D3

Agreed 100%.

GM should have put out a press release, prior to the unveil, and said, "The "V" will no longer be at the apex of the Cadillac stable; however, we have some new luxury muscle coming down the pipe that will cure your desire for more horsepower and all-out performance.".

So many people were anticipating the CT4-V and CT5-V, only to be blindsided. I believe pure shock has to do with a portion of the backlash. Nobody, outside of GM Headquarters, knew of this change. Keeping it under wraps, did them no favors.

All I know is that whatever they are planning, it better be big...really big. A large portion of the GM faithful are quite disgruntled and confused.

+1