[JSH]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Vengeance Racing is the same way. When I asked about doing tuning my car for flex fuel, they didn't want to do it for the same reason.

My shop has had ample opportunity to recommend Eth as my next step, but they have learned to not like it for the reasons cited here. They recommended a 100 shot as my next step, but I'm not sure I have enough hpfp.

Everyone here knows that King is a huge 'E' fan but it's apparently not as easy as he makes it seem.

[arpad_m]

KingLT1 nailed it as always. You will be blending no matter what simply because the E content at the pump varies, even if you use the same gas station every time.

You simply need to be aware of your fuel system's limits and careful with the E percentage, unless you beef up your fuel system to the point where it can deal with E85 or even E90 regardless of elevation and temperature (but that'll cost you $$$ and the gains from anything above E60-65 are minuscule, so these diminishing returns make the cost feel even more painful).

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by JSH

My shop has had ample opportunity to recommend Eth as my next step, but they have learned to not like it for the reasons cited here. They recommended a 100 shot as my next step, but I'm not sure I have enough hpfp.

Everyone here knows that King is a huge 'E' fan but it's apparently not as easy as he makes it seem.

Its not that its that difficult to manage ethanol blends for someone that is a real car enthusiast and pretty handy with data logging, but for the average person, the big shops just aren't going to take a chance on someone understanding this and keeping up with it. This is the same reason why you don't see catch cans on vehicles from the factory because the OEM knows the average owner isn't going to empty it like they should. It just becomes a huge liability for the big shops. Look at what it could do to the reputation of that shop if a customer blows an engine due to no fault of the shop but the vehicle owner. The owner isn't going to own up to their mistake and the blame will automatically be placed on the shop and in this day and time will be spread across the internet on multiple forums and social media. Quite frankly, for me, I just don't care for the hassle of blending, I would rather just run 93 or full E85.

[Megahurtz]

Originally Posted by Daler

Seems like what I’m getting after reading everything is don’t run a blend. I was considering going e50 because now with that aux pump I feel more safer but even then I’m not sure based on what you guys are saying. I live in Ohio, at the time of the tune it was November. It can get cold up here and any season but the winter, I see 30 degrees lowest and once summer hits it’s always nice out. I was going to get a guage to make reading e % easier but it was too late at that point. So here’s my questions for y’all.

Should I run e50 now because of my aux pump and will it be ok now with that pump if temps drop?

Tune for e50 and when I want to run e I should just full it up to e30 or e35 so it isn’t maxing out the fuel system?

Should I just not run e at all because it’s too stressful and catastrophic? 🤣

What guage can I get to see both e % and also fuel pressure? I can only seem to find one that reads either only fuel pressure or either only e %. will want one 100%

You shouldn't run any Ethanol until you have a way to monitor your ethanol % AND learn how to read datalogs PID's that tell you where you stand with the fuel system. I recommend the Fuel-It Bluetooth Ethanol reader to all my clients. It plugs right in the middle of the flex fuel harness and sends the content to an app on your phone via blue tooth. No need to install a gauge. Then make sure your rail pressure stay around 2900 PSI and your injectors pulsewidth in milliseconds stays under 6.0. And 6.0 is near the edge so if its 6.0 in warm weather, you're going to run out of fuel again in the winter. The safe way to go is aim for 5.5ms at peak torque and 5.2ms at redline which gives you room for colder weather. Then datalog in cold weather and make sure you can still handle the E content. If you do it right you will know what the car will handle safely. For example, a bolt on ZL1 with a low side can usually safely run E50 in the winter and E60 in the summer. Adjust for altitude or real real cold weather by adding or subtracting 5% ethanol. This long winded answer is why many shops don't feel like dealing with Ethanol Blends for the customers because MOST people don't take the effort to learn and monitor how to safely run Ethanol.

If you really want to run full pump E and not worry, go with port injection. I used to not like the port offerings but they are getting better and now that I've tuned a few of these its pretty easy. There are a couple of things you can stumble on but once you learn them its easy. When DSX releases his port kit, I imagine its going to get even easier. I'm waiting for the DSX kit for my personal car but I really like the Too High PSI kit.

[Katech_Mike]

Originally Posted by JSH

My shop has had ample opportunity to recommend Eth as my next step, but they have learned to not like it for the reasons cited here. They recommended a 100 shot as my next step, but I'm not sure I have enough hpfp.

Everyone here knows that King is a huge 'E' fan but it's apparently not as easy as he makes it seem.

I'm not a fan of running blends as stated above but there is absolutely nothing wrong with E85. It will make more power than race gas on your combo. No disputing it.

You just need to spend money on the fuel system. Fore Triple and port injection at your power level.

I would recommend E85 to any customer as long as they have the budget to upgrade the fuel system properly.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Katech_Mike

I'm not a fan of running blends as stated above but there is absolutely nothing wrong with E85. It will make more power than race gas on your combo. No disputing it.

You just need to spend money on the fuel system. Fore Triple and port injection at your power level.

I would recommend E85 to any customer as long as they have the budget to upgrade the fuel system properly.

Mike, at what point would race gas make more power than E85? Just curious.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Megahurtz

You shouldn't run any Ethanol until you have a way to monitor your ethanol % AND learn how to read datalogs PID's that tell you where you stand with the fuel system. I recommend the Fuel-It Bluetooth Ethanol reader to all my clients. It plugs right in the middle of the flex fuel harness and sends the content to an app on your phone via blue tooth. No need to install a gauge. Then make sure your rail pressure stay around 2900 PSI and your injectors pulsewidth in milliseconds stays under 6.0. And 6.0 is near the edge so if its 6.0 in warm weather, you're going to run out of fuel again in the winter. The safe way to go is aim for 5.5ms at peak torque and 5.2ms at redline which gives you room for colder weather. Then datalog in cold weather and make sure you can still handle the E content. If you do it right you will know what the car will handle safely. For example, a bolt on ZL1 with a low side can usually safely run E50 in the winter and E60 in the summer. Adjust for altitude or real real cold weather by adding or subtracting 5% ethanol. This long winded answer is why many shops don't feel like dealing with Ethanol Blends for the customers because MOST people don't take the effort to learn and monitor how to safely run Ethanol.

If you really want to run full pump E and not worry, go with port injection. I used to not like the port offerings but they are getting better and now that I've tuned a few of these its pretty easy. There are a couple of things you can stumble on but once you learn them its easy. When DSX releases his port kit, I imagine its going to get even easier. I'm waiting for the DSX kit for my personal car but I really like the Too High PSI kit.

I'm waiting on the DSX kit too. That's 100% the way to go but Kudos to Too High for creating a product that was badly needed.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Mike, at what point would race gas make more power than E85? Just curious.

I might be wrong, but I don't think there's any scenario where race gas would make more power because ethanol always has that added cylinder cooling effect.

[Katech_Mike]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Mike, at what point would race gas make more power than E85? Just curious.

Great question. We have never found that limit.

I know in the VAG V10 platform they make over 2,000hp on pump E85 with boost.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I might be wrong, but I don't think there's any scenario where race gas would make more power because ethanol always has that added cylinder cooling effect.

I was under the impression that there was a point where race gas would take over since the massive volume of E85 needed at very high power actually becomes an issue in the combustion chamber. I wish I could remember where I saw it.

Originally Posted by Katech_Mike

Great question. We have never found that limit.

I know in the VAG V10 platform they make over 2,000hp on pump E85 with boost.

Thanks Mike. So for all intents and purposes on this platform sounds like staying with E is the way.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by JSH

For me, the AEM X-SERIES WIDEBAND UEGO AFR GAUGE KIT is a must. It makes it very easy to see your AFR in real-time. In the OP's case, surely it would have provided sufficient warning if the engine went lean

Gauges are great (I have an AEM WB and a Aeroforce), but is it reasonable to be watching BOTH of them at WOT at even stock power levels? On the street, I'm not so sure; maybe on the track. I'm just saying they're great tools, but like Jason or Joe (both have said it at some time here at any rate) said - when you start getting out of the injection window, you'll likely be getting into false WB readings, and they'll show rich, when they very are likely lean, because of spraying fuel out of the exhaust, due to timing being too late, and spraying past the exhaust valve opening.

I'm completely advocating for them, but they have to be watched with filtered eyes.

Originally Posted by Daler

Seems like what I’m getting after reading everything is don’t run a blend. I was considering going e50 because now with that aux pump I feel more safer but even then I’m not sure based on what you guys are saying. I live in Ohio, at the time of the tune it was November. It can get cold up here and any season but the winter, I see 30 degrees lowest and once summer hits it’s always nice out. I was going to get a guage to make reading e % easier but it was too late at that point. So here’s my questions for y’all.

Should I run e50 now because of my aux pump and will it be ok now with that pump if temps drop?

Tune for e50 and when I want to run e I should just full it up to e30 or e35 so it isn’t maxing out the fuel system?

Should I just not run e at all because it’s too stressful and catastrophic? 🤣

What guage can I get to see both e % and also fuel pressure? I can only seem to find one that reads either only fuel pressure or either only e %. will want one 100%

You can get a Banks (which I have, too, that I switched out for an Aeroforce for KNOCK alerts), but, as I said above - I'm not sure if you're going to be watching the gauge at WOT at 100-MPH. Unless you have traction, you'll be sawing away at the steering wheel and probably watching what's going on in front of you. BOTH will register rail pressure, but they'll be jumping around some, so it would probably take a long look to see what the trend might be. As said later, I'd probably set-up IPW, but again, glancing at the gauge at WOT is going to take some luck and care to stay on the road.

There's no reason not to run E', as long as the car is set-up appropriately enough, and it is tuned correctly. If you are paying attention, you'll see who's contributing to this thread (among many others), and I'd consider going to them for calibration needs (PM me if you need more clarity). They can do this stuff without thinking about it. Get your aux' pump installed, and work with someone who knows what they're doing. As already stated - you might consider port injection (TooHighPSI is who I'd recommend, and who I use) for more fueling into the engine if you want to run full E' with what it looks like your new combination is. Spend once - cry once.

Originally Posted by JSH

My shop has had ample opportunity to recommend Eth as my next step, but they have learned to not like it for the reasons cited here. They recommended a 100 shot as my next step, but I'm not sure I have enough hpfp.

Everyone here knows that King is a huge 'E' fan but it's apparently not as easy as he makes it seem.

E' is not a big deal. No - I'm not close to an expert, but after going through what I have, it doesn't have to be complicated, so long as you have a fuel system that can move enough juice, and enough injector. It's not complicated as much as it is $$$, and it's not too bad now with the options that are out there.

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I'm waiting on the DSX kit too. That's 100% the way to go but Kudos to Too High for creating a product that was badly needed.

Don't count THPSI out... I don't know anything, but I've read some stuff. No argument as to the high quality of DSX stuff though. I've used them, too, and am pretty happy with what I have/had.

JMHO.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

I was under the impression that there was a point where race gas would take over since the massive volume of E85 needed at very high power actually becomes an issue in the combustion chamber. I wish I could remember where I saw it.

Thanks Mike. So for all intents and purposes on this platform sounds like staying with E is the way.

Could what you're thinking be about port injection? It's my understanding, at least theoretically, that pumping enough fuel into the intake port(s) could displace enough air, that you could almost be "choking" air out of the combustion chamber, thereby losing some power. Maybe an oxygenated racegas would not have this issue, and maybe DI gets by this, for obvious reasons...

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Katech_Mike

You just need to spend money on the fuel system. Fore Triple and port injection at your power level.

I haven't priced Fore Triple and port injection, but I have priced a BBFP, 65+ injectors, larger fuel lines, etc. to run E, and I can buy ~800 gals. of 100 oct. for that price (approximately). The only reason I haven't changed fuel systems is that I'm at the 9.00/150 mph roll cage limits.

[Megahurtz]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I might be wrong, but I don't think there's any scenario where race gas would make more power because ethanol always has that added cylinder cooling effect.

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

I was under the impression that there was a point where race gas would take over since the massive volume of E85 needed at very high power actually becomes an issue in the combustion chamber. I wish I could remember where I saw it.



Thanks Mike. So for all intents and purposes on this platform sounds like staying with E is the way.

Originally Posted by radz28

Could what you're thinking be about port injection? It's my understanding, at least theoretically, that pumping enough fuel into the intake port(s) could displace enough air, that you could almost be "choking" air out of the combustion chamber, thereby losing some power. Maybe an oxygenated racegas would not have this issue, and maybe DI gets by this, for obvious reasons...

Ethanol based fuels carry additional oxygen molecules as do some race fuels, but petrol based fuels will never have the cooling effect of alcohol based fuels. That is why the fastest cars, IE Funny Car Drag cars, run Nitromethane. The Nitro carries the extra oxygen so that you don't need to worry about displacing the air in the combustion chamber with fuel volume, and then the methane for cooling and knock resistance.

I'm sure there is a much more complex way to word this by a much smarter person than myself.