[R3DLT1]

uh what....Product will be ready before fathers day with a special fathers day sale????

[samsumon]

Well, considering GM took their CAI from any promo material, sage to say I'm leaning towards this.

[BradfordCamaro]

Please don't sell it until you have product to ship.
I will be waiting.

[Roto-fab 1]

Originally Posted by BradfordCamaro

Please don't sell it until you have product to ship.
I will be waiting.

BradfordCamaro,

We are currently working around the clock to prepare ourselves for the increased production. Thank you very much for your valuable input and we are glad you are interested in our upcoming product! Out of personal curiosity, what qualities of the Roto-fab are most appealing to you?

Thanks again,
Michael

[Roto-fab 1]

Originally Posted by JDP Motorsports

This is an outstanding system and it will be worth the wait. Roto-Fab takes a lot of pride in their products. They won't release it until it does exactly what they want it to and what Roto-Fab customers expect it to do! Stay tuned!!

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley
801-545-4215

Thank you for your continued help and support as we finalize this product, Jordan. We couldn't have said it better ourselves: "Roto-Fab takes a lot of pride in their products. They won't release it until it does exactly what they want it to and what Roto-Fab customers expect it to do!"

Thanks again,
Michael

[BradfordCamaro]

Originally Posted by Roto-fab 1

BradfordCamaro,

We are currently working around the clock to prepare ourselves for the increased production. Thank you very much for your valuable input and we are glad you are interested in our upcoming product! Out of personal curiosity, what qualities of the Roto-fab are most appealing to you?

Thanks again,
Michael

Styling, Simplicity of Design, Proven record of Performance with Camaro and the Big Ass box with Big Ass filter.

[Roto-fab 1]

Awesome, thank you for your confidence that this intake will be everything we say it will be. We won't disappoint!

Have a good weekend,

Michael

[Roto-fab 1]

Please read this if you are considering or testing an aftermarket CAI system

I don't want to "threadjack", so I will post it in our thread. This information relates to both testing and long term performance.

This post is specifically in reference to testing with an over-sized MAF housing. (larger than stock) I will make this as simple as possible to understand. This is what takes place if you are using the stock calibration-no tune.

1) The MAF sensor itself is very small, so it sees a very small sample of air and uses a table to assume total air flow.
2)The MAF sensor is calibrated to the stock MAF housing size and flow characteristics.
3) If you increase the size of the housing, you will flow more air than the sensor "thinks" is flowing. Remember, it sees a small sample and makes a calculation of total air flow.
4) If you immediately drive or dyno test at WOT (wide open throttle) the AFR (air/fuel ratio) will be lean as compared to stock AFR readings. The MAF sensor is under-reporting air flow in this situation. However, the fuel trims haven't yet adjusted to the intake-more on that later. For the time being, you will see an increase of power. Note when you are at WOT your O2 sensor/fuel trims functions aren't adjusting.
5) Fast forward to road driving. As you drive the car under various load conditions, your engine management system uses the MAF sensor readings to know how much fuel to add or inject. As we know, the sensor is under-reporting air flow due to the larger housing. During normal driving, this is noticed by the O2 sensors which see the lean condition caused by the excess air.
6) The engine management system rectifies the lean condition by increasing the amount of fuel. These adjustments are referred to fuel trims and in this case would create positive fuel trims.
7) This process is what is known as "learning" a new intake. It can take upwards of 200 miles. It's a process of seeing various load conditions more than mileage. In other words, 200 highway miles won't always complete the learning process.
8) Let's assume a few days or weeks have gone by and your system has "learned" the new MAF housing. The larger housing has resulted in positive long term fuel trims to account for the unreported additional air. Now when you go WOT the positive fuel trims are carried over. Fuel trims don't adjust at WOT, but positive fuel trims are carried over during WOT. Actually, this happens before WOT and is referred to as PE (power enrichment).

In the process explained above, the car went from running lean and making power to running richer than stock and losing power. The worst part is the latter where the system will remain until tuned or changed. Here are some actual numbers from our testing with a CAI using an over-sized MAF housing.

Car mileage..............AFR@WOT......... LTFT (long term fuel trims)

8549..........................13.5................ .........-0.8
8599..........................13.2................ .........-0.8
8701..........................12.0................ ........+6.3
8754..........................11.7................ ........+7.8

The above shows an average of where the fuel trims lock at WOT. As you can see, what started out as a great performing system went steadily downhill over the coarse of 200 miles. These are actual examples pulled from our logged data and testing, not fictitious numbers! The numbers could be much worse if the MAF housing was larger.
This is a general example to help people understand what happens when the MAF housing isn't properly designed for the stock calibration. This is not intended to explain all aspects of what takes place and why! We don't generally go into even this much detail about testing, but I felt this was necessary and helpful for those considering an aftermarket CAI system.

[JoeAyalaM]

So it is neccesary to tune the car in order to obtain an advantage from a CAI, or a larger MAF is also needed?

Is Roto fab planning to offer these?

Is this AFR problem carried over at high elevations?

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by Roto-fab 1

Please read this if you are considering or testing an aftermarket CAI system

I don't want to "threadjack", so I will post it in our thread. This information relates to both testing and long term performance.

This post is specifically in reference to testing with an over-sized MAF housing. (larger than stock) I will make this as simple as possible to understand. This is what takes place if you are using the stock calibration-no tune.

1) The MAF sensor itself is very small, so it sees a very small sample of air and uses a table to assume total air flow.
2)The MAF sensor is calibrated to the stock MAF housing size and flow characteristics.
3) If you increase the size of the housing, you will flow more air than the sensor "thinks" is flowing. Remember, it sees a small sample and makes a calculation of total air flow.
4) If you immediately drive or dyno test at WOT (wide open throttle) the AFR (air/fuel ratio) will be lean as compared to stock AFR readings. The MAF sensor is under-reporting air flow in this situation. However, the fuel trims haven't yet adjusted to the intake-more on that later. For the time being, you will see an increase of power. Note when you are at WOT your O2 sensor/fuel trims functions aren't adjusting.
5) Fast forward to road driving. As you drive the car under various load conditions, your engine management system uses the MAF sensor readings to know how much fuel to add or inject. As we know, the sensor is under-reporting air flow due to the larger housing. During normal driving, this is noticed by the O2 sensors which see the lean condition caused by the excess air.
6) The engine management system rectifies the lean condition by increasing the amount of fuel. These adjustments are referred to fuel trims and in this case would create positive fuel trims.
7) This process is what is known as "learning" a new intake. It can take upwards of 200 miles. It's a process of seeing various load conditions more than mileage. In other words, 200 highway miles won't always complete the learning process.
8) Let's assume a few days or weeks have gone by and your system has "learned" the new MAF housing. The larger housing has resulted in positive long term fuel trims to account for the unreported additional air. Now when you go WOT the positive fuel trims are carried over. Fuel trims don't adjust at WOT, but positive fuel trims are carried over during WOT. Actually, this happens before WOT and is referred to as PE (power enrichment).

In the process explained above, the car went from running lean and making power to running richer than stock and losing power. The worst part is the latter where the system will remain until tuned or changed. Here are some actual numbers from our testing with a CAI using an over-sized MAF housing.

Car mileage..............AFR@WOT......... LTFT (long term fuel trims)

8549..........................13.5................ .........-0.8
8599..........................13.2................ .........-0.8
8701..........................12.0................ ........+6.3
8754..........................11.7................ ........+7.8

The above shows an average of where the fuel trims lock at WOT. As you can see, what started out as a great performing system went steadily downhill over the coarse of 200 miles. These are actual examples pulled from our logged data and testing, not fictitious numbers! The numbers could be much worse if the MAF housing was larger.
This is a general example to help people understand what happens when the MAF housing isn't properly designed for the stock calibration. This is not intended to explain all aspects of what takes place and why! We don't generally go into even this much detail about testing, but I felt this was necessary and helpful for those considering an aftermarket CAI system.

Very informative, thanks for posting this! Makes perfect sense! So a tune would be more necessary when increasing the size of the MAF housing.

Seems like going WOT right after installation may be a bit dangerous as well running that lean until it "learns." What I gather from this is, if increasing the MAF housing size, you have to tune.

[Atomic Ed]

Thanks for the openness on your product development. Trying to improve on the Gen 6 setup without diving into the ECU is a daunting task. The basic problem is always "more air requires more fuel".

The bright side of this is you have presented great evidence that you have developed a CAI that truly delivers much improved mass air flow.

You may be finding yourself in a condition that you may have to split this product into two options. One for the individual that wants the extra air and is willing to tune for it, and another option for those that don't want to go the tuning route.

I would definitely be interested in the better flow and adding a tune to take advantage of the improved flow.

[Tr6]

Originally Posted by JoeAyalaM

So it is neccesary to tune the car in order to obtain an advantage from a CAI, or a larger MAF is also needed?

Is Roto fab planning to offer these?

Is this AFR problem carried over at high elevations?

ECU will always adapt to the changes from non-tune "needed" parts, however the parameters aren't set specifically to the parts you have added so tuning the car will have the BEST results aka maximizes the potential of the parts added because those ECU parameters are based on the parts added.

You cannot just add cams and heads and boost the car without a tune though, unless you want to blow up the engine. Intake, TB, IM, non-primary cat delete parts (catted headers) you can just slap on and not "need" a tune. You may not "need" a tune but you "WANT" the tune.

Rotofab, thank you guys for sharing the information and definitely looking forward to the progress of it all!

[Atomic Ed]

Originally Posted by Tr6

ECU will always adapt to the changes from non-tune "needed" parts, however the parameters aren't set specifically to the parts you have added so tuning the car will have the BEST results aka maximizes the potential of the parts added because those ECU parameters are based on the parts added.

You cannot just add cams and heads and boost the car without a tune though, unless you want to blow up the engine. Intake, TB, IM, non-primary cat delete parts (catted headers) you can just slap on and not "need" a tune. You may not "need" a tune but you "WANT" the tune.

Rotofab, thank you guys for sharing the information and definitely looking forward to the progress of it all!

As an add-on comment, the range of ECU adaptation is somewhat limited and when exceeded, an error flag/limp mode can be triggered. It seems to me that as the ECUs get smarter, and the engine design improves, the range of adaptation gets narrower.

It seems to me that Roto-fab has hit a soft limit on adaptation. The WOT tables on this ECU look to be adaptable. Other, older ECUs didn't allow adaptation at WOT.

I still say this is not a bad thing. Roto-Fab succeeded in opening up the mass air flow, congrats! The lack of adaptation range could be something we Gen 6 owners may have to put up with. Hopefully I'm wrong on this account.

[TSloper]

Holy crap! I bring up the same stuff and get called an asshole. A vendor finally acknowledges the real deal and they are said to be very informative. This forum is full of some real winners.

Anyways....

This is the only cold air intake that has my attention. The dyno graph made logical sense unlike the CAI graph. And the vendor is speaking in terms that matter. Not some BS marketing crap. Congrats for not taking advantage of those not well versed in this area.

Rotofab... is the MAP showing an increase where you are showing power gains in the upper end? I'd also be curious to see what a tuned install does versus a tuned stock intake.

Tim