Driveshaft and Axle Strength

[trashbasket]

Originally Posted by Moto-Mojo

You broke your tires? Send pics!

oh yea bro, break those all the time, loose, in half, its wild.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by CamaroCracka

Driveshaft will be fine.

I run roughly 800whp with slicks and a manual with a factory drive shaft.

This… I’ve not heard of any factory driveshaft failures other than reusing the “one time” use bolts. Random periods of vibration being traced to loose, broken, or missing bolts…

Originally Posted by acutron42

From what I have read here & also discussed with Andrew Cammer, deflection in the cradle will be your biggest enemy. Hard to say how long parts will live depending on how hard you are on them. I am upgrading to Hendrix solid bushings, DSS driveshaft & G-Force Renegade axles along with a Truetrac. It might be overkill but I plan on running the 1/8 quite a bit this summer on drag radials.

Interesting combination of items… !!!

I originally ran the solid cradle bushings, until I had the Peddars coilovers installed, and we used the Urethane bushings… We did note “hot spots” on the solid bushings after removing them. I honestly didn’t notice any driving difference between the two… I never broke an axle nor rubbed a driveshaft…

My car was lowered an inch, and this never created any issues for me, though I’ve heard others had different experiences… I believe lowering the car had an impact on those failures, but I have no personal proof one way or the other… .

Back to the interesting choice of parts, and maybe moto-mojo has an opinion, outside of the sales brochures…

I don’t remember specifically which was which, though I think DSS uses cut splines and G-Force used rolled splines. Way back when there was all manner of discussion about which was better… (cut or rolled)

I broke up many of the discussions with the simple statement, of how fortunate we were to have two great companies with stellar customer service, supporting this site and the Camaro performance market…

Having said all that, I chose DSS 9”, One piece aluminum DSS shaft, Strange Center Section, a Wave-trac diff, DSS axles (1400 hp) and rolled it up with a Street Slayer Clutch, from Thomas Hendrix (the triple carbon initially, and graduated to the quad carbon piece). To that point, we still had the guibo at the Trans…if memory serves… The final iteration ended up with 1350 yokes at both ends of a 4” one piece shaft built by Thrash in San Antonio… We needed it in a hurry… Got their measurement sheet, verified a couple items, took them the sheet, discussed the tight fit, (see above limiting the cradle movement) and they had my balanced 4” one piece shaft the next day… We had an event and couldn’t wait…

You’re running a DSS shaft, and the G-force axles… Are you on the stock SS pumpkin, or maybe a ZL1 diff…

Originally Posted by morepowerjoe

Yeah I have bmr poly subframe bushings, trailing arms, and toe rods. I also have new Ac Delco axles. But I just don't know.

I had the Peddars poly sub-frame and diff bushings, BMR adjustable trailing arms and toe rods as well… Quality pieces… I won’t mention the name, but my original aftermarket, (not BMR) trailing arms, right side, I “crushed” the webbing… Hit very hard off the clutch and standing on it at 200+ mph in 5th gear… That created a small, but noticeable crazy angle from side to side… We pulled out the tape, measured everything between passes, “borrowed a factory trailing arm from a friend at the event, and ordered the good stuff the following Monday…

Originally Posted by Moto-Mojo

This pains me because for 49 years I've been in - and now retired, from the driveshaft business. For decades we used u-joint series to spec HP, torque, angle, etc. (1310, 1350,1410, etc.) And tube dia. & length. But don't recall ever seeing a flex disk ('guibo') like our Camaros have being equated to a particular u-joint series. And they've been around a long time. Mercedes was using them in the 80's. But generally speaking, they're tough SOB's. Until they're not.

I'd have to believe a fudge factor was built into the stock shaft. But Cracka's must be getting out toward the limits. Roughly double the HP of the OE. Good to know they can handle it.

I mighta hit a guibo piece with ~~1100 RWHP, a couple of times, mostly on street (Goodyears) and a couple times on crinkle wall slicks… They are tough, and I’m hard headed, but it was time to move on… 1350 yokes on each end, one piece 4” shaft, maybe ~~40 inch shaft length… It’s been a long time and I’ve had three strokes since then… and a nap or three… We had the DSS/Strange center section, and an extended length trans output shaft housing… (no floating shifter) thus the shaft was shorter… Well over 2k hp, and never an issue…

Originally Posted by Moto-Mojo

There may have been - and even intended to be, a stress riser at the spline end. For decades we told customers that the driveshaft was the "fuse" in the drivetrain. Tubing was spec'd and actually intended to twist and or break before trans and diffs were destroyed. It didn't always work out that way though!

I can testify… We broke many a trans, though I was fortunate not to shell the diff… A friend wanted it for his G8 I think, I could be remembering the wrong car… Though once he told me he wanted it, I never hammered on the car again until that diff was out and my DSS unit was in…

Originally Posted by morepowerjoe

I've heard that auto's are easier on the drive train but don't know really how true that is. I actually have a second set of new Ac Delco axles just sitting in the garage.

Everything I’ve ever heard, point and shoot cars (autos) are much easier on the entire driveline than the ham footed meat heads operating the manual trannys like I did…

I twisted a 300M output shaft… (Dead hook on slicks at 6000 rpm at Indy) builder of said shaft said it couldn’t be twisted… I got pictures… He wanted the whole trans back…He even paid return shipping after seeing the output shaft image…His autopsy was a mess to say the least… Not only was the output shaft twisted, the main shaft and various parts inside the trans were so twisted , he couldn’t get the forged gears off the shafts, (I went 200+ mph a few months later with that same trans, before the noted shaft twist, only pulling it out after hurting the motor at the mile, which was when we found the twisted shaft) so I had to purchase an entire new trans. All the gears were forged except 6th and reverse… Shafts, all forged… etc etc etc… Never hurt that one…

[acutron42]

Great info SSE 4 2SS! Yes, I am running the stock housing with an LPW rear cover. Andrew did advise me that I would most likely be fine with the stock driveshaft & axles with the auto. I do have a nice stockpile of oem parts as well.

[Moto-Mojo]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

I mighta hit a guibo piece with ~~1100 RWHP, a couple of times, mostly on street (Goodyears) and a couple times on crinkle wall slicks… They are tough, and I’m hard headed, but it was time to move on… 1350 yokes on each end, one piece 4” shaft, maybe ~~40 inch shaft length…

Wow, I knew they were tough. But roughly 3x OE spec is pretty incredible. Yes, seen many 1350 series in crazy HP aps - especially off road, Trophy Truck in Baja punished stuff. It too works well WAY over its '1-ton' pick 'em up rating.

[morepowerjoe]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

This… I’ve not heard of any factory driveshaft failures other than reusing the “one time” use bolts. Random periods of vibration being traced to loose, broken, or missing bolts…



Interesting combination of items… !!!

I originally ran the solid cradle bushings, until I had the Peddars coilovers installed, and we used the Urethane bushings… We did note “hot spots” on the solid bushings after removing them. I honestly didn’t notice any driving difference between the two… I never broke an axle nor rubbed a driveshaft…

My car was lowered an inch, and this never created any issues for me, though I’ve heard others had different experiences… I believe lowering the car had an impact on those failures, but I have no personal proof one way or the other… .

Back to the interesting choice of parts, and maybe moto-mojo has an opinion, outside of the sales brochures…

I don’t remember specifically which was which, though I think DSS uses cut splines and G-Force used rolled splines. Way back when there was all manner of discussion about which was better… (cut or rolled)

I broke up many of the discussions with the simple statement, of how fortunate we were to have two great companies with stellar customer service, supporting this site and the Camaro performance market…

Having said all that, I chose DSS 9”, One piece aluminum DSS shaft, Strange Center Section, a Wave-trac diff, DSS axles (1400 hp) and rolled it up with a Street Slayer Clutch, from Thomas Hendrix (the triple carbon initially, and graduated to the quad carbon piece). To that point, we still had the guibo at the Trans…if memory serves… The final iteration ended up with 1350 yokes at both ends of a 4” one piece shaft built by Thrash in San Antonio… We needed it in a hurry… Got their measurement sheet, verified a couple items, took them the sheet, discussed the tight fit, (see above limiting the cradle movement) and they had my balanced 4” one piece shaft the next day… We had an event and couldn’t wait…

You’re running a DSS shaft, and the G-force axles… Are you on the stock SS pumpkin, or maybe a ZL1 diff…




I had the Peddars poly sub-frame and diff bushings, BMR adjustable trailing arms and toe rods as well… Quality pieces… I won’t mention the name, but my original aftermarket, (not BMR) trailing arms, right side, I “crushed” the webbing… Hit very hard off the clutch and standing on it at 200+ mph in 5th gear… That created a small, but noticeable crazy angle from side to side… We pulled out the tape, measured everything between passes, “borrowed a factory trailing arm from a friend at the event, and ordered the good stuff the following Monday…



I mighta hit a guibo piece with ~~1100 RWHP, a couple of times, mostly on street (Goodyears) and a couple times on crinkle wall slicks… They are tough, and I’m hard headed, but it was time to move on… 1350 yokes on each end, one piece 4” shaft, maybe ~~40 inch shaft length… It’s been a long time and I’ve had three strokes since then… and a nap or three… We had the DSS/Strange center section, and an extended length trans output shaft housing… (no floating shifter) thus the shaft was shorter… Well over 2k hp, and never an issue…




I can testify… We broke many a trans, though I was fortunate not to shell the diff… A friend wanted it for his G8 I think, I could be remembering the wrong car… Though once he told me he wanted it, I never hammered on the car again until that diff was out and my DSS unit was in…


Everything I’ve ever heard, point and shoot cars (autos) are much easier on the entire driveline than the ham footed meat heads operating the manual trannys like I did…

I twisted a 300M output shaft… (Dead hook on slicks at 6000 rpm at Indy) builder of said shaft said it couldn’t be twisted… I got pictures… He wanted the whole trans back…He even paid return shipping after seeing the output shaft image…His autopsy was a mess to say the least… Not only was the output shaft twisted, the main shaft and various parts inside the trans were so twisted , he couldn’t get the forged gears off the shafts, (I went 200+ mph a few months later with that same trans, before the noted shaft twist, only pulling it out after hurting the motor at the mile, which was when we found the twisted shaft) so I had to purchase an entire new trans. All the gears were forged except 6th and reverse… Shafts, all forged… etc etc etc… Never hurt that one…

Good info sir. How much hp were you pushing when you twisted that output shaft?

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by morepowerjoe

Good info sir. How much hp were you pushing when you twisted that output shaft?

~~ 1300+ rwhp on boost, call it 1700 on spray, and it only sprayed at WOT in second, third…. Obviously I wasn’t at full HP sitting on the line but it was a good bit…

[morepowerjoe]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

~~ 1300+ rwhp on boost, call it 1700 on spray, and it only sprayed at WOT in second, third…. Obviously I wasn’t at full HP sitting on the line but it was a good bit…

Holy crap that's a lot of power!

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by morepowerjoe

Holy crap that's a lot of power!

That was the original aftermarket engine setup… and an expensive learning curve… ERL 427 ci short block, LS3 heads… then LSA heads, 67/66 Turbos up to 18 lbs of boost… We finally gave it up and had ERL build us a custom purpose built motor…

LS Aluminum short block, AllPro LSW 12°-4 heads, Jesel valve train… 225 lb/hr injectors, Ross pistons, billet everything, (crank, rods) tool steel pushrods, and twin 76/75 turbos, pushing up to 35 lbs of boost, at 9000 rpm… we never determined the actual HP due to tire spin on the dyno… but at 27 lbs, and only 8100 rpm, we were making 2000 rwhp… So we guess at 35 lbs and close to the shift point of 9k rpm, we were somewhere close to 2400-2500… maybe more, maybe less…

Crazy part… 99 mph in first gear… shift into 5th at 220 plus… I did Standing Mile racing….

[morepowerjoe]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

That was the original aftermarket engine setup… and an expensive learning curve… ERL 427 ci short block, LS3 heads… then LSA heads, 67/66 Turbos up to 18 lbs of boost… We finally gave it up and had ERL build us a custom purpose built motor…

LS Aluminum short block, AllPro LSW 12°-4 heads, Jesel valve train… 225 lb/hr injectors, Ross pistons, billet everything, (crank, rods) tool steel pushrods, and twin 76/75 turbos, pushing up to 35 lbs of boost, at 9000 rpm… we never determined the actual HP due to tire spin on the dyno… but at 27 lbs, and only 8100 rpm, we were making 2000 rwhp… So we guess at 35 lbs and close to the shift point of 9k rpm, we were somewhere close to 2400-2500… maybe more, maybe less…

Crazy part… 99 mph in first gear… shift into 5th at 220 plus… I did Standing Mile racing….

That is awesome sir! I like to here of the big builds that go on and that is certainly a big build in my book.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by morepowerjoe

That is awesome sir! I like to here of the big builds that go on and that is certainly a big build in my book.

I see you’re in Austin, I used to live in Kyle, and have a bunch of friends and acquaintances in the Austin area. I used to attend the gatherings held at Cabelas in Buda… That car was a heap of fun… I’m reading your build thread now… I haven’t commented in mine for a while…

[morepowerjoe]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

I see you’re in Austin, I used to live in Kyle, and have a bunch of friends and acquaintances in the Austin area. I used to attend the gatherings held at Cabelas in Buda… That car was a heap of fun… I’m reading your build thread now… I haven’t commented in mine for a while…

Yeah I used to attend everything car related in Austin area because I was in a car club called C3. I was in it for 3 years and made it to vice president but decided to take a break form it for a while last month. I haven't been to Cabela's though.

[SSE 4 2SS]

OP, I apologize for the thread jack…

Originally Posted by morepowerjoe

Yeah I used to attend everything car related in Austin area because I was in a car club called C3. I was in it for 3 years and made it to vice president but decided to take a break from it for a while last month. I haven't been to Cabela's though.

Cabelas was ended a few years ago I believe… Too many folks acting the fool… Not just car peeps… Traffic got heavy with the buildup of all the restaurants… We had the CTCC, Central Texas Camaro Club, or some name like that… Didn’t really have “leadership”, to my knowledge, just a place to meet, hang out, scare the crap out of people occasionally, (ask Skunkjunk) all in good fun…

Me: “Hey Skunk, you getting out of my car…”
Skunk: “Not til my damned knees stop shaking.”

[Aqua Blue RS/SS]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

That was the original aftermarket engine setup… and an expensive learning curve… ERL 427 ci short block, LS3 heads… then LSA heads, 67/66 Turbos up to 18 lbs of boost… We finally gave it up and had ERL build us a custom purpose built motor…

LS Aluminum short block, AllPro LSW 12°-4 heads, Jesel valve train… 225 lb/hr injectors, Ross pistons, billet everything, (crank, rods) tool steel pushrods, and twin 76/75 turbos, pushing up to 35 lbs of boost, at 9000 rpm… we never determined the actual HP due to tire spin on the dyno… but at 27 lbs, and only 8100 rpm, we were making 2000 rwhp… So we guess at 35 lbs and close to the shift point of 9k rpm, we were somewhere close to 2400-2500… maybe more, maybe less…

Crazy part… 99 mph in first gear… shift into 5th at 220 plus… I did Standing Mile racing….

Your build was definitely one on the best 5th gens I’ve ever seen. I love watching the standing mile videos You’ve posted thru the years. The onstar video still makes me laugh! I bet it was hard letting it go but I definitely understand why you did.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Aqua Blue RS/SS

Your build was definitely one on the best 5th gens I’ve ever seen. I love watching the standing mile videos You’ve posted thru the years. The onstar video still makes me laugh! I bet it was hard letting it go but I definitely understand why you did.

Thanks Brother…

It was a hoot while it lasted… I really enjoyed the build thread banter…and I still randomly pick a page and start reading… Who’ld thunk over a million views on a build thread… The Mile is this weekend as a matter of fact… No plans to visit this weekend, but probably in Oct….