[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by Efi69Cam

Heat pump, Wtf do you think an ac is?

https://www.carrier.com/residential/...-does-it-work/

As a car A/C doesn't produce heat (at least not to the passenger compartment), it is not a heat pump.

[olrocker]

I don’t give two hoots about the environment or cost - I miss R-12. I’d pay $350/lb right now if it was possible to put it in all my cars.

[Evergreen6]

I haven't noticed an inability for any modern AC system in a car to keep up and adequately cool the interior, whether it was designed for R134a or 1234yf.
Some Japanese and German cars with AC in the early 90's seemed to struggle to keep things cool, but I think the AC units were just undersized. Not built for American expectations of what AC should do.

What really sucks is straight R12 to R134a conversions in a system designed for R12 without also properly sizing the orifice tube. That nets really cruddy results sometimes and it's better to stick with R12 if you can get it.

[Efi69Cam]

heat pump: a machine that generates heat transfer from cold to hot.

Reversibility does not define a heat pump.

Heat pumps do not produce heat they move it.

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by Efi69Cam

heat pump: a machine that generates heat transfer from cold to hot.

Reversibility does not define a heat pump.

Heat pumps do not produce heat they move it.

Reversibility isn't the point. Heat pumps can be made reversible because they move heat from one place to another.

Conventional compressor/condenser/evaporator based A/C doesn't cool by "moving" heat from the conditioned volume and as such the process can't be reversed.

[zedts1986]

Originally Posted by MT-SS1LE

The goal of these climate change cults is to eventually make a/c so expensive that no one can afford to have it or repair it, in your car or house. Every year the EPA makes car manufacturers use more expensive and inferior refrigerants. Notice how modern a/c doesn't get nearly as cold as it did 10+ years ago? And it costs 4X as much to repair it or refill it. It's all by design, to accomplish an extremist agenda.

It must be exhausting to live and think this way.

[zedts1986]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Relative rarity compared to the old stuff. It's only been in use for the past decade or so. IIRC there is also a patent expiring soon, which will lead to more manufacturers producing it and (hopefully) lowering prices.

Correct. Just like any new technology brought to the market (especially under a patent), it is initially more expensive that most other options. As patents expire, competition will take place and prices will fall. The first company to create and patent it gets the advantage of charging more - recovering R&D costs and enjoying the benefits of being the first to figure it out. After some time, patents expire and competition moves in. It's the great American way.

[zedts1986]

Originally Posted by wavsine

and flammable, toxic and corrosive....

Answer: It is more environmentally friendly. It's just you that will be injured by the stuff. Environment will be fine.

If you're in an accident that causes a fire, there are far more dangerous things in your car than 1234yf.

[Evergreen6]

I'm trying to find where the EPA mandates a different type of refrigerant for cars, EVERY YEAR.

Last I checked, R134a started being used widely in place of R12 around 1993/1994. That was over 2 decades of use before vehicle started phasing in 1234yf around 2015/2016.

We use R410a in the heat pump at our house. EPA never made us change anything, and it's been in service for almost 20 years.

[wavsine]

Originally Posted by zedts1986

If you're in an accident that causes a fire, there are far more dangerous things in your car than 1234yf.

Hydrogen fluoride is released when it burns.

Andreas Kornath, an inorganic chemistry professor at Munich University, describes hydrofluoric acid is an insidious poison, “even a palm-sized wetting of the skin can be fatal within minutes if you do not take counter-measures”

Carbonyl fluoride is also released, structurally similar to Phosgene, the nerve agent used in WW1. We banned it from wartime use but it is ok for our car's ac?

Please tell me what other components of a vehicle can produce more deadly fumes.

Environmentalists/EPA are f***ing crazy.

But not to worry. We are more likely to have our faces blown off by the shrapnel from the exploding ARC airbag inflators in our Camaros.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by wavsine

Hydrogen fluoride is released when it burns.

Andreas Kornath, an inorganic chemistry professor at Munich University, describes hydrofluoric acid is an insidious poison, “even a palm-sized wetting of the skin can be fatal within minutes if you do not take counter-measures”

Carbonyl fluoride is also released, structurally similar to Phosgene, the nerve agent used in WW1. We banned it from wartime use but it is ok for our car's ac?

Please tell me what other components of a vehicle can produce more deadly fumes.

Environmentalists/EPA are f***ing crazy.

But not to worry. We are more likely to have our faces blown off by the shrapnel from the exploding ARC airbag inflators in our Camaros.

How many people have been injured or killed by 1234yf in automotive collisions since it was introduced almost 10 years ago?

Are people still worried about burning alive with 15 gallons of highly explosive gasoline on board, or the toxic products it creates when it combusts and consumes a vehicle? Just a random question, no link to 1234yf obviously.

[zedts1986]

Originally Posted by wavsine

Hydrogen fluoride is released when it burns.

Andreas Kornath, an inorganic chemistry professor at Munich University, describes hydrofluoric acid is an insidious poison, “even a palm-sized wetting of the skin can be fatal within minutes if you do not take counter-measures”

Carbonyl fluoride is also released, structurally similar to Phosgene, the nerve agent used in WW1. We banned it from wartime use but it is ok for our car's ac?

Please tell me what other components of a vehicle can produce more deadly fumes.

Environmentalists/EPA are f***ing crazy.

But not to worry. We are more likely to have our faces blown off by the shrapnel from the exploding ARC airbag inflators in our Camaros.

So, your last point there is the point that I am making. The risks that come from 1234yf are inconsequential. If there's an accident that results in fire, or temps high enough to ignite this fluid (about 750F), there are other things that will kill you just as quick.

Light the seat that you sit on on fire and breathe it in. You'd be amazed of the things in your car that can kill you. The concern over 1234yf is alarmist nonsense.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by zedts1986

So, your last point there is the point that I am making. The risks that come from 1234yf are inconsequential. If there's an accident that results in fire, or temps high enough to ignite this fluid (about 750F), there are other things that will kill you just as quick.

Light the seat that you sit on on fire and breathe it in. You'd be amazed of the things in your car that can kill you. The concern over 1234yf is alarmist nonsense.

I think 1234yf ignition can be as high as 1650F. I could be wrong.

More likely is a puncture and release of 1234yf under pressure into the atmosphere before a fire starts. Almost 100% probability that the AC system will be opened in a heavy front end collision that compromises the condenser. The refrigerant should be out before a fire starts, and that speaks to the non-existent data on deaths due to refrigerant in a collision.

And yeah, just about every byproduct of combustion in a car is extremely toxic in a vehicle fire, including the combustion of gasoline itself.

[zedts1986]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

I think 1234yf ignition can be as high as 1650F. I could be wrong.

More likely is a puncture and release of 1234yf under pressure into the atmosphere before a fire starts. Almost 100% probability that the AC system will be opened in a heavy front end collision that compromises the condenser. The refrigerant should be out before a fire starts, and that speaks to the non-existent data on deaths due to refrigerant in a collision.

And yeah, just about every byproduct of combustion in a car is extremely toxic in a vehicle fire, including the combustion of gasoline itself.

Yeah, it just seems so sensationalist to get pretend to worry about it.