Z28, Supercharged or Not?

[Savini]

Originally Posted by syr74

If it were up to me I would effectively merge the LSA and LS9 engines with the only differences being the supercharger itself and the lack of a dry sump on the LSA models and just slap said revised LSA into the Camaro and CTS-V.

The biggest difference between the two models is cost of production - the LS9 is hand built, whereas the LSA is assembly-line-built. The parts are not the largest differentiator from a production standpoint.

Having been heavily involved with the build of a Camaro with a LSA (Conrad Grunewald/Blu808/Hankook's Formula D Camaro), I can say that it is a fantastic fit for this car and knowing what other engines are available, I would be very suprised to see the Z28 come out with anything else.

[BustedCrank]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

DI would be worth more than 24 hp on a 6.2L engine ... its worth more than that on 3.6L. At any rate, a DI Z28 should be available at about the same time as a DI SS

Which will proabably be a year after you see DI on the corvette. Which my guess will be in the C7

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by BustedCrank

Which will proabably be a year after you see DI on the corvette. Which my guess will be in the C7

Thats where I'd put my money.

[TheStigsFatAmericanCousin]

Originally Posted by Savini

The biggest difference between the two models is cost of production - the LS9 is hand built, whereas the LSA is assembly-line-built. The parts are not the largest differentiator from a production standpoint.

Having been heavily involved with the build of a Camaro with a LSA (Conrad Grunewald/Blu808/Hankook's Formula D Camaro), I can say that it is a fantastic fit for this car and knowing what other engines are available, I would be very suprised to see the Z28 come out with anything else.

Interesting. I recall those Ti rods (well, the ones in LS7, at least) were like $500 for the set or something like that, but there are a lot of improvements LS9 has over LSA. I'm not going to argue that it's a lot more expensive to hand-build a particular engine vs. another, but it seems the engineering to get that intercooler hat, the hood bulge, and the rest of the validation to get the 100 HP/liter wasn't cheap either; not to mention the failed twin turbo "thermal event" I remembered reading about... I think the cost of the R&D is pretty close to the equal in the difference in the assembly. JMVHO

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Savini

The biggest difference between the two models is cost of production - the LS9 is hand built, whereas the LSA is assembly-line-built. The parts are not the largest differentiator from a production standpoint.

Having been heavily involved with the build of a Camaro with a LSA (Conrad Grunewald/Blu808/Hankook's Formula D Camaro), I can say that it is a fantastic fit for this car and knowing what other engines are available, I would be very suprised to see the Z28 come out with anything else.

I suppose my comment revolves more around the engine itself than the Z28, CTS-V, or ZR1. IMHO, given the fact that the regular production plans for supercharged LS series V8's has been seriously curtailed in the last several years, I just no longer see the point in having both engines in such distinct forms (as it relates to assembly and internals) Once upon a time we were talking about the possibility of heavy duty trucks and large, multiple large, rwd sedans with blown LS series V8's as an option which makes assembly on a production line look plausible and even advantageous. Now that the possibilities are limited to the CTS-V and the possibility of the next Z06 and the rumored Z28, making room on an assembly line hardly seems worth the effort or costs. In my experience t would almost certainly be less expensive for GM to just hand build all the motors than it would be to maintain a genuine production line option for the very limited volume LSA.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by syr74

I suppose my comment revolves more around the engine itself than the Z28, CTS-V, or ZR1. IMHO, given the fact that the regular production plans for supercharged LS series V8's has been seriously curtailed in the last several years, I just no longer see the point in having both engines in such distinct forms (as it relates to assembly and internals) Once upon a time we were talking about the possibility of heavy duty trucks and large, multiple large, rwd sedans with blown LS series V8's as an option which makes assembly on a production line look plausible and even advantageous. Now that the possibilities are limited to the CTS-V and the possibility of the next Z06 and the rumored Z28, making room on an assembly line hardly seems worth the effort or costs. In my experience t would almost certainly be less expensive for GM to just hand build all the motors than it would be to maintain a genuine production line option for the very limited volume LSA.

I'm sorry - so are you saying you are not supporting the hand-built nature of LS9/7/3(GS) or you think they should merge the LS9/LSA together to make one shared enging, or blending both of them together? I think that LS9/7 being hand-built is more for image than anything. It sounds cooler to a car guy to hear that the engine was built by a person and not a computer. With all the torque and angle checks of all the equipment and such, I kinda' think it's not all that necessary to devote manpower/money to. That's not to say I don't like the idea, and that it doesn't sound cool to me. Is the price worth the product though? Is it really necssary? Maybe there are assembly idiosyncrasy that I don't know/understand.

If you ask me if eliminating the LSA shortblock in favor of the LS9 I'd say yes, but it's going to cost a lot more. I think the best bet of making Z28 remotely affordable to regular Camaro-people is going to be LSA, straight out of the CTS-V.

I talk out my butt though

[syr74]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I'm sorry - so are you saying you are not supporting the hand-built nature of LS9/7/3(GS) or you think they should merge the LS9/LSA together to make one shared enging, or blending both of them together?

I think the basic engine designs should be blended together with differences between the two limited to things like lack of a dry sump setup on the LSA and potentially different supercharger applications depending upon application.

Originally Posted by radz282003

I think that LS9/7 being hand-built is more for image than anything. It sounds cooler to a car guy to hear that the engine was built by a person and not a computer. With all the torque and angle checks of all the equipment and such, I kinda' think it's not all that necessary to devote manpower/money to. That's not to say I don't like the idea, and that it doesn't sound cool to me. Is the price worth the product though? Is it really necssary? Maybe there are assembly idiosyncrasy that I don't know/understand.

Actually, my argument is based upon my inclination to doubt that the LSA actually costs GM less to build than the LS9 as an assembly line tends to eliminate costs only on those items produced in relatively high volume. When I worked in the automotive industry we had some low volume items that would normally be assembled on a line or in a cell which were instead manufactured, for lack of a better term, by hand. The manufacturer exploited the cachet of that 'hand assembly' to be sure, but that wasn't why we did it. We did it because it cost less to manufacture small volume items in that manner than it did to rig up an entire production line to build them.

And yes, IMHO if the procedures utilized are sound and the employees well trained hand assembly, with the assistance of high tech equipment, can create a product with a level of quality that easily surpasses that of an assembly line piece, all else being equal. (all else being equal meaning that hand assembly obviously cannot make up for poor development or inferior component parts, etc)

Originally Posted by radz282003

If you ask me if eliminating the LSA shortblock in favor of the LS9 I'd say yes, but it's going to cost a lot more. I think the best bet of making Z28 remotely affordable to regular Camaro-people is going to be LSA, straight out of the CTS-V.

I think LSA is what you'll get, but I likewise think GM could probably do you guys one better.

Originally Posted by radz282003

I talk out my butt though

You can't do that, that's my job.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by syr74

I think the basic engine designs should be blended together with differences between the two limited to things like lack of a dry sump setup on the LSA and potentially different supercharger applications depending upon application.

Actually, my argument is based upon my inclination to doubt that the LSA actually costs GM less to build than the LS9 as an assembly line tends to eliminate costs only on those items produced in relatively high volume. When I worked in the automotive industry we had some low volume items that would normally be assembled on a line or in a cell which were instead manufactured, for lack of a better term, by hand. The manufacturer exploited the cachet of that 'hand assembly' to be sure, but that wasn't why we did it. We did it because it cost less to manufacture small volume items in that manner than it did to rig up an entire production line to build them.

And yes, IMHO if the procedures utilized are sound and the employees well trained hand assembly, with the assistance of high tech equipment, can create a product with a level of quality that easily surpasses that of an assembly line piece, all else being equal. (all else being equal meaning that hand assembly obviously cannot make up for poor development or inferior component parts, etc)

I think LSA is what you'll get, but I likewise think GM could probably do you guys one better.

You can't do that, that's my job.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight. I, obvisously, don't share the same background as you (other parts of the industry) but what you're posting makes sense to a simple person like me. That'd be a shame if you're right though, I'll say that!

Kudos to you

[OldJedi]

Question to all of you much smarter than I, if GM takes the LSA straight out of the CTS-V and drops it into the Camaro (Z28), do they have to spend the time and money to certify the engine again since it was already certified for the Caddy?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by OldJedi

Question to all of you much smarter than I, if GM takes the LSA straight out of the CTS-V and drops it into the Camaro (Z28), do they have to spend the time and money to certify the engine again since it was already certified for the Caddy?

Yes. Every powertrain combination needs to be certified and validated for each car.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Yes. Every powertrain combination needs to be certified and validated for each car.

OK thanks, I was hoping that if GM did not have to spend the time and money to re-certify the the LSA for the Z28, it might be an easier choice to use the Caddy engine.

[Savini]

The assembly line vs. hand assembly cost discussion is moot without an inside analysis from GM. Those of you thinking that there's no difference in finished product between an assembly-line engine and a hand built, top marque engine have never had an engine built by hand. Balanced/blueprinted with only the choicest parts not only makes a discernibly sweeter motor, but it puts the ZR1 in the same category as the top of the line Porsches, Ferrari's and Lamborghinis by having a hand-assembled engine. The Camaro will not see this.

Originally Posted by OldJedi

OK thanks, I was hoping that if GM did not have to spend the time and money to re-certify the the LSA for the Z28, it might be an easier choice to use the Caddy engine.

If you're interested in hearing about the swap, here's a video we did with a dyno run and Conrad talking (read: rambling on lol) about what's required ~ straight from the horse's mouth.

[OldJedi]

Thanks for the info about the LSA swap. It was good to hear that the engine fit under the stock hood, not so crazy about having to remove the the wiper tray, especially here in rainy Florida. I am sure that GM will get it figured out before the Z28 is released with hopefully an LSA in the engine compartment and operational wipers.

[Robin Lawrence]

You don't need to cut or remove the wiper tray. Conrad modified his but I modified the intercooler top on my LSA.

GM would need to re design an intercooler top specific to the Camaro.

Robin