07-22-2020, 01:26 PM | #253 | |
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Tampa Florida
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It's not the block that will be an issue, it'll be the heads. A slightly smaller fpc block wont really alleviate that either imo. Big heads and intake system are the obstacle in a Camaro engine bay that was designed around the geometry of a ohv. The suspension geometry all benefits from the tidy ohv small block.
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2000 Miata - aventi storm wheels, roll bar.
2019 Mustang GT pp1 - svt pp2 wheels, mbrp cat back, sync 3 upgrade, p1x procharger + stg2 intercooler. 2018 Colorado zr2 - zr2 sport bar, showcase spare tire. 2018 Camaro SS 1LE - GM cai, black bowties, suede knee bolsters, 1le plate frame, black fuel door, dark tails + 3rd brake light, euro side markers + led's, GM all weather floor mats, velossatech big mouth, GM strut brace. 2017 Corvette Grandsport (sold) - untouched. 2006 GTO (sold) - iat relocation, air box mod, monero side marker lights. |
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07-22-2020, 01:40 PM | #254 | |||||||||
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
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1) better flowing primary cats... not expensive and could be used on the LT1 2) better flowing longer runner bigger volume intake like the LT2, not expensive and can also be used on LT1 3) Bigger TB... no cost 4) Redesign CAI not expensive and could be used on the LT1, also add in a redesign duct to the front grill instead of a block of plate. 6) change pattern on cam: cheap and could be used on LT1 7) remove DoD: free, not used on the manual anyway, this would allow for Z/28 spec cams 8) E85 compatible: free 9) upping the displacement: basically free So one can see some, most, all LT3 power additions could be used on the LT1 so maybe we would see LT1 => 480 HP LT3 = > 505 HP GM had already showed that with relatively mild changes and keeping DoD the LT2 can make 495 HP. Quote:
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The reality AFAIK is that DOHC V8 are going FI and that means the intake ports are heck of small for both velocity (throttle response, MPG, smog) and packaging. I highly doubt GM would design a DOHC V8 for breathing and then adding a FPC for rev. Why? The engine would be HUGE externally, complicated, expensive, top heavy, have less MPG, and produce LESS HP than current engines already in production. Judging from Ford's FPC experience, and Ford has invested a whole lot into DOHC V8 over many decades, why would GM want to follow suit? I have no doubt in my mind that GM could just bolt in a LT5 ZLE and completely destroy the GT500. But GM does not play the Ford ADM game and that is one reason I have a Camaro vs Shelby, probably the biggest reason. If true cost to buy the car was used we would never have a Shelby discussion. GM is offering a warrantied track ready car, Ford is offering you can't race it, we won't fixit and we have to limit production so only FAT wallets that can pay ADM, can have the car.. Leaving every Ford fanboy on of course I purchased my Shelby for MSRP. I owned to GLHS back in the day, and they were WAY over MSRP. Quote:
I don't know where the article is, maybe a Ford guy can find it. But it dealt with why the GT500 could not go twin turbo and DCT. From memory and I am old, the DCT did not offer enough ratio spread for a twin turbo while a supercharger (due to lower RPM for boost onset) did. Secondly from memory, the CPC with it double shot of exhaust would cause spool flow issues with a twin turbo setup. The Ford engine is just WRONG for twin turbo, its ports are too big, the engine is too big externally and too small internally. GM's Blackwing is the engine of the future period. Quote:
1) tall, large, top heavy 2) complicated intake, maybe even dual TB 3) expensive to build 4) harmonic design issues all over the place (Ford's oil pump blowing up), not to mention Ford's inability to put a lighten flywheel on it. 5) expensive to warranty and / or fix, Ford just denies the warranty. Vs benefit. Oh it puts out 600 HP NA... big deal NA is not a design requirement. NA engines are just cheaper and for GM smaller than FI or DOHC engines. I can understand why GM does NOT use the Blackwing engine in the Vette (too small in displacement). But to clean slate design a DOHC V8 for high rpm breathing on just ONE car (won't fit in the Camaro) would be a crazy waste of resources and design time / cost all to produce an engine with less HP and torque. While a compact DOHC V8 FI with high velocity intake ports could be used in the Vette, Camaro, Raptor like trucks, SUVs et all. Quote:
Future 2dr Camaro based on the C8, limited in tire size and OHV V8, but having both an auto and a manual available. Basically a cheap Vette with OHV technology and transmission choices. Then the base Vette would get a DOHC LT6 at 600 HP and two twin turbo options at 700 and 900 HP. OK I would buy that. I could see the engine / transmission type being the real divide between the Camaro / C8, given the uncertain future of the next Camaro. In this scenario, the LT6 NA is a marketing ploy not a design / performance issue. You want DOHC buy a Vette. If you want cheap $60K buy a LT2 manual trans 7th gen Camaro based on the C8.
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 07-22-2020 at 01:51 PM. |
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07-22-2020, 10:20 PM | #255 | |
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,212
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I must say, seeing plastic intake on that Blackwing where exhaust headers are supposed to be takes some getting used to!
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2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
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07-23-2020, 02:34 PM | #256 |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,324
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Here is the supposed LT6, I personally don't see GM building a good breathing DOHC engine when the trend it to have a high velocity intake port back up by turbo because:
1) it is a MUCH smaller design 2) makes for a much better FI engine. Better: MPG, throttle response, smog To mind the only reason to build a good breathing DOHC is if the Camaro is going mid engine, then the Camaro would be limited to OHV and the Vette's base engine would be a NA DOHC. But this would be purely a marketing move not an engineering move. As a compact twin turbo FI engine will make way more HP and we are talking Vette So it could look like this: A) Camaro, OHV V8, manual or auto trans, luxury options, smaller tires, tame body work and affordable say $50K base B) Vette: a) Base: DOHC 600 HP DCT 70K b) upscale DOHC twin turbo 700 HP DCT 80K c) top shelf DOHC twin turbo 900 HP DCT 90K You guys let me know if you think the OK breathing DOHC is going to make it into the Camaro. The turbos would probably touch the front wheels and the intake would stick say 5 inches out of the hood, maybe more towards the front of the car...
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
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07-24-2020, 07:55 AM | #257 | |
Drives: 1SS, A8, MRC, NPP, Blade Spoiler Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MD
Posts: 1,485
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Obviously this is all speculation and rumor, but so far the rumors have all been true. Oh, and the Z06 is supposed to get active-aero too... |
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07-24-2020, 08:41 AM | #258 |
Drives: like an old lady Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: indiana
Posts: 2,396
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didnt the chrysler crossfire cars have this 10 years ago?
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07-24-2020, 09:48 AM | #259 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,695
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07-24-2020, 11:24 AM | #260 |
07-24-2020, 01:18 PM | #261 | |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,324
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Sure GM probably is going DOHC in the Vette, but clearly there is a marketing reason vs power, weight, et al. I'm pointing out that the Blackwing is the current cat's meow in design and that features an absolutely tinny intake port (for all the reasons I listed already). Is GM "dumb" enough to put money and time into a good breathing DOHC engine for one chassis? I don't know. They did it before with the LT5, or will they design a clean slate V8 similar in concept to the Blackwing that is based around FI and a compact engine size? Oh BTW the LT2 intake fits on the LT1 Camaro
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 07-24-2020 at 03:18 PM. |
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07-24-2020, 08:42 PM | #262 | |
Drives: Chevy Camaro Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: TBD
Posts: 276
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07-24-2020, 08:48 PM | #263 | |
Drives: Chevy Camaro Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: TBD
Posts: 276
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07-25-2020, 01:22 AM | #264 | |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,324
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
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07-25-2020, 07:59 AM | #265 |
Drives: Camaro Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 97
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I don’t understand the LT6 won’t fit argument. How can the black wing dohc v8 fit in the ct6 and the tt dohc v6 fit in the ats v? There essentially the same engine bay correct?
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07-25-2020, 10:19 AM | #266 |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
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The Blackwing has an absolutely tinny tiny intake port and intake manifold and associated head port which is also outside the the V. The intake ONLY works with twin turbo. To feed a much bigger 5.5 liter the engine would have to grow 30% or so and to get a conventional layout intake in the V, that could also breath would add another 10% or so. Ford 4.6 and 5.0 engines are HUGE, the 5.4 DOHC is even bigger. The only way to get a DOHC engine to breath NA is to raise the intake port and that makes the engine even bigger. The Blackwing uses FI (20 PSI) to achieve what essentially is mediocre power from a FI DOHC engine. 550 HP from a twin turbo V8 clean slate design is not very good. Then comes the excuse oh it is only 4.2 liters, LOL. Internal engine size is not a design criteria in the USofA. Lastly the Blackwing was limited in HP because of engine bay heat.... a killer for sure on a performance car with GM ready to race warranty. That what happens when you fill an engine bay up with a huge engine and two turbos. How many times has GM been bitten by a heat problem?
So say the new DOHC engine does produce 600 HP NA and GM could "fit" it into the Camaro, what do they get? The engine will produce less hp and way way way less torque than the LT4. What "race" or street driving will this new engine / chassis excel at? The LT4 > Voodoo, why would GM put a a slightly bigger Voodoo along with all the problems associated with DOHC high revving engines. GM would be LAUGHED at when this Z/28 DOHC would inevitably be matched against the GT500 and the ZLE, even more so if the LT5 goes into the ZLE (completely believable). To my mind the only reason for a DOHC 600 HP NA engine is for marketing on a base Vette, assuming the Camaro 7th gen will be mid engine OHV with a choice of transmissions. Up to 60K you get a Camaro mid engine OHV with choice of transmissions and NA up to 70 K you get a C8 DOHC NA 600 HP upto 80K you get a twin turbo C8 700 HP above 80K gets you a high boost twin turbo C8 at 900 HP. essentially the Camaro remains a "poor man's Vette", and finally loses the useless backseats; Back to the Blackwing "The Blackwing was meant to differentiate the top-level Cadillac from the rest of GM's products.... the small-block V8 could fit the Omega platform.... the supercharged small-block... wouldn't fit the character Cadillac was striving for." Which is essentially what I'm saying a DOHC V8 NA for the Vette is more about marketing than performance. It the engine does not have to have NA performance, it makes more sense to build a Blackwing type engine with small ports and FI (better torque, better smog, better MPG, smaller externally, more responsive), but alas GM would not have an entry level NA DOHC V8. If it were me, I would say: Mid engine Camaro OHV your choice of transmissions. C8 2021 DOHC twin turbo base 650 HP low boost, DCT with no thought of good breathing NA DOHC. C8 High boost up to 900 HP, DCT Here: "Given Cadillac’s abrupt change of course, it’s amazing that the Blackwing engine even made it into production. The few examples of the twin-turbo V-8 were hand-built in Kentucky, at the Bowling Green plant where the Corvette is assembled. Each engine was constructed from start to finish by a single employee, one of just six appointed to this role. One source estimates that the Blackwing cost General Motors $16 million to develop—around $20,000 per example. You get the sense that the team behind it wanted to show Cadillac was capable of producing a world-class engine, even if the production run was extremely small."
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 07-25-2020 at 10:58 AM. |
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