[zx9rmal]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

As for Cadillac, I actually considered the ATS-V for a little bit. Deal killer is the LF4 engine. Never a big fan of these turbocharged engines because A. Turbo lag, B. Lower longevity and reliability compared to NA engines and C. Doesn't sound as good as V8. If it has the LT1, I would have given it a more serious look.

Interesting what you say about the LF4 engine. I've never driven an ATS-V, but modern turbo cars have virtually zero turbo lag. Most of them make max torque at very low rpm's.

[rocket403]

I'm sure GM has invested a huge sum of money on the Camaro and to see it outsold by the Mustang and the Challenger must be upsetting.

For every guy/girl that is happy to drive a Camaro with it's small backseat, small useless trunk, and it's bunker like feel there are 2 others that walked away and picked up a Mustang or a Challenger.

Not a fan of GM and their brain trust and the cars and trucks they build (Vette not included)
Ford and FCA have been outselling their trucks and Camaro for the last 2 years GM needs to look at why their trucks have taken a hit and what they need to do to fix it. I think that the Camaro/ Caddy needs a win soon or they are done.

[oldman]

I loved my Challenger it was a great "GT" car. It was NOT a good stop light slapdown street fighter.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Not a fan of GM and their brain trust and the cars and trucks they build (Vette not included)
Ford and FCA have been outselling their trucks and Camaro for the last 2 years GM needs to look at why their trucks have taken a hit and what they need to do to fix it. I think that the Camaro/ Caddy needs a win soon or they are done.

GM as a whole will be done if they can't figure out a better product and marketing strategy.

I've been buying from them, but there is absolutely nothing in their car, truck and SUV lineup that I would even want to give a chance to, the C8 is the only interesting vehicle they carry and of course that's an absolute niche product, too... so it isn't just the Camaro and Cadillac where they have issues, hope they will wake up once the s**t hits the fan hard and their golden Silverado goose starts getting pounded bad.

The electric bandwagon is already at full steam (har-har), they are quite late for that party after axing the Volt and never taking the Bolt seriously, which again calls for excellence and/or cost effectiveness to be able to compete.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by zx9rmal

Interesting what you say about the LF4 engine. I've never driven an ATS-V, but modern turbo cars have virtually zero turbo lag. Most of them make max torque at very low rpm's.

The modern ones usually aren't that bad, but they are still there if you pay attention unless you are buying a $100k+ car with tricks like an electric turbo. In a family car, it's no biggie, but in a sports car, it definitely takes away from the experience.

Either way, other than the slight torque advantage at lower RPM than the LT1 and the tuning potential(not that LF4 has a great aftermarket from what I have seen), I don't see the appeal of LF4 over LT1, and most people have expressed the same.

[oldman]

The c8 is a dream car for me. If that can't make you "happy"... I don't know what you expect for $60k.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by rocket403

I'm sure GM has invested a huge sum of money on the Camaro and to see it outsold by the Mustang and the Challenger must be upsetting.

For every guy/girl that is happy to drive a Camaro with it's small backseat, small useless trunk, and it's bunker like feel there are 2 others that walked away and picked up a Mustang or a Challenger.

Not a fan of GM and their brain trust and the cars and trucks they build (Vette not included)
Ford and FCA have been outselling their trucks and Camaro for the last 2 years GM needs to look at why their trucks have taken a hit and what they need to do to fix it. I think that the Camaro/ Caddy needs a win soon or they are done.

Yea the s550 mustang is known for its giant trunk and huge back seats.. oh wait it's not.. dude get out and check one out, back seats will have your head hitting the rear glass the whole time and the trunk while a little better than the camaro isn't all that great either besides the opening.

Neither of them have the trunk or rear seat space that the dodge boat has.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Yea the s550 mustang is known for its giant trunk and huge back seats.. oh wait it's not.. dude get out and check one out, back seats will have your head hitting the rear glass the whole time and the trunk while a little better than the camaro isn't all that great either besides the opening.

Neither of them have the trunk or rear seat space that the dodge boat has.

You can get 2 sets of golf clubs in there without folding the rear seats down though. I think team Camaro should have had that on their list just like team C8 did. Did i just start the golfer vs non golfer debate again?

[zx9rmal]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

The modern ones usually aren't that bad, but they are still there if you pay attention unless you are buying a $100k+ car with tricks like an electric turbo. In a family car, it's no biggie, but in a sports car, it definitely takes away from the experience.

Either way, other than the slight torque advantage at lower RPM than the LT1 and the tuning potential(not that LF4 has a great aftermarket from what I have seen), I don't see the appeal of LF4 over LT1, and most people have expressed the same.

I only have experience with GTI's that I've owned. That car made maximum torque at 1,900 rpm! Many other reasonably priced sporty cars I've read about are similar. Turbos have come a long way.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

You can get 2 sets of golf clubs in there without folding the rear seats down though. I think team Camaro should have had that on their list just like team C8 did. Did i just start the golfer vs non golfer debate again?

hahaha yes you probably did.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

You can get 2 sets of golf clubs in there without folding the rear seats down though. I think team Camaro should have had that on their list just like team C8 did. Did i just start the golfer vs non golfer debate again?

I'm not a golfer lol.. but I do own a 19 GT and 18 SS and besides the opening, which is abysmal in the camaro, there isn't much practical difference.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by zx9rmal

I only have experience with GTI's that I've owned. That car made maximum torque at 1,900 rpm! Many other reasonably priced sporty cars I've read about are similar. Turbos have come a long way.

Shoot the new sub 30k Veloster N's have an anti lag feature. Turbo lag still exists but its definately being mitigated.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by zx9rmal

I only have experience with GTI's that I've owned. That car made maximum torque at 1,900 rpm! Many other reasonably priced sporty cars I've read about are similar. Turbos have come a long way.

I have driven a few turbocharged cars, from a courtesy rental 1.4T Jetta to a friend's Audi RS7 with a 4.0T engine, and yep, I have driven a friend's GTI as well.

By stock, GTI suffers from some high-end torque drop-off. My friend got a tune from Eurodyne and it helps the car maintain the pull a lot better at the higher RPM range.

The Audi RS7 is interesting because it depends on the mode you put it to. In Comfort, the lag is downright awful, but when you turn it to Dynamic, there is little to no lag at all, and the exhaust crackles like insane. I heard these German cars are usually very flexible with parameter combination, you can make your own combination of steering, throttle input, etc. whereas the Camaro still has a lot of parameters tied to the modes. Then again, it's a $150k+ car, it's gonna be fancy.

In the end, personally I have only owned NA engines and I intend to keep it that way. Turbochargers have improved, but longevity-wise, I still wouldn't doubt an NA engine would last longer.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Shoot the new sub 30k Veloster N's have an anti lag feature. Turbo lag still exists but its definately being mitigated.

Yeah, the exhaust pops and crackles are actually useful in those.

But personally, the one turbocharged car I really want to try is the FD RX-7(or get another RX-8 and turbocharge it). Turbo improves the screwdriver low-end torque of rotaries and rotaries have a lot of exhaust for a turbo to use.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I'm not a golfer lol.. but I do own a 19 GT and 18 SS and besides the opening, which is abysmal in the camaro, there isn't much practical difference.

The difference is you have to take the driver out of the bag and have it ride shotgun or fold the seats down in the camaro. Which one would think isn't that big of a deal unless you have a child seat in the back and can't fold the seats down bc the camaro rear seat isn't a split fold and are picking someone up for golf lol Which is where it really gives the Mustang the edge in trunk useability for me as a potential buyer lol