Toyota Discredits Electronical Unintended Accleration Claim

[a_Username]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35765822/ns/business-autos

WASHINGTON - Toyota, dogged by millions of recalls and claims that it still has not fixed its safety problems, took its strongest step yet Monday to silence critics who blame faulty electronics for runaway cars and trucks.

Toyota assembled a group of experts to refute studies by an Illinois professor who revved Toyota engines simply by short-circuiting the wiring. Toyota's experts say the experiments were done under conditions that would never happen on the road.

The automaker maintained its assertion that simpler mechanical flaws, not electronics, were to blame.

There isn't a ghost issue out there," Kristen Tabar, an electronics general manager with Toyota's technical center, told a news conference at the company's North American headquarters in Torrance, Calif.

Meeting with reporters, Toyota addressed the work of David W. Gilbert, an automotive technology professor at Southern Illinois University-Carbondale, whose work has been the basis of doubts about Toyota's mechanical fixes.

At least one outside expert said that even if Toyota's criticisms are accurate, the professor's work shows the systems that allow brakes to override stuck gas pedals can be compromised.

Toyota is mounting a public campaign to reassure its drivers about their safety and defending itself against critics who question the fix for 8 million recalled cars and trucks. Regulators have linked 52 deaths to crashes allegedly caused by the accelerator problems.

The company's fix addresses gas pedal parts and floor mats that can cause the accelerator to become stuck in the depressed position. More than 60 Toyota owners who have had their cars repaired have complained the problem has persisted.

Toyota dealers have fixed more than 1 million vehicles. But the government has warned that if the remedy provided by Toyota does not properly address the problem, federal regulators could order the company to come up with another solution.

Gilbert told a congressional hearing Feb. 23 that he recreated sudden acceleration in a Toyota Tundra by short-circuiting the electronics behind the gas pedal — without triggering any trouble codes in the truck's computer.

The trouble codes send the car's computer into a fail-safe mode that allows the brake to override the gas. Gilbert called his findings a "startling discovery."

House lawmakers seized on the testimony as evidence Toyota engineers missed a potential problem with the electronics that could have caused the unwanted acceleration.

But Monday, Chris Gerdes, director of Stanford University's Center for Automotive Research, and a consulting firm, Exponent Inc., rejected the professor's findings.

Toyota's assembled experts said the professor's experiments could not be recreated on the actual road. For example, they said, Gilbert had shaved away insulation on wiring and connected wires that would not normally touch each other.

"There is no evidence that I've seen to indicate that this situation is happening at all in the real world," Gerdes said. He added that the professor's work "could result in misguided policy and unwarranted fear."

To prove their point, Toyota officials revved the engines of cars made by competitors, including a Subaru Forester and a Ford Fusion, by connecting a circuit rigged up to the wiring of the gas pedals.

Toyota supports other research programs at Stanford's engineering school and is an affiliate of the Center for Automotive Research, but Gerdes said he came to his conclusions "with complete independence."

Gilbert did not immediately respond to messages seeking comment.

Exponent has conducted work for companies that are being sued and once determined that secondhand tobacco smoke was not cancerous. It was also hired by the U.S. government to investigate the Columbia space shuttle disaster.

Exponent officials said they were conducting an extensive study of Toyota electronics but they had not yet found any problems with the electronic throttle controls.

Toyota has been steadfast in saying the problem is strictly mechanical. Company president Akio Toyoda assured Congress two weeks ago that Toyota research had not found a link between the reports of runaway acceleration and electronics.

Instead, the company is shortening gas pedals to prevent them from becoming lodged under floor mats and inserting metal pieces the size of a stamp to keep gas pedals from sticking in the depressed position.

An outside expert, Raj Rajkumar, an electrical and computer-engineering professor at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh who studies auto electronics, said Gilbert's work raises doubts about the fail-safe systems.

"Pretty much anybody who works on electronic-based vehicle systems understands that things can go wrong," he said.

He said a number of factors could cause vehicle electronics to malfunction, including software coding errors, electrical interference and static electricity. He said technology wasn't available to prove that a system as complex as Toyota's electronic throttle control will always behave correctly.

Congress has more questions. The House Oversight Committee wants to look at a 2006 memo from company employees to Toyota senior management that raised concerns the automaker was taking shortcuts on safety.

In the memo, first reported Monday by the Los Angeles Times, the employees said they were concerned the processes used to build safe cars might be "ultimately ignored."

The employees warned that if Toyota failed to act, it could "become a great problem that involves the company's survival."

Toyota executives also plan to address recall issues at the company's annual suppliers meeting in Kentucky on Tuesday.

Seems Toyota is trying to defend itself. Their whole argument centered around it not being able to happen in real world situations, but IMO if they recreate it, then it is possible it could happen.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Apparently, toyota can't explain it. Apparently, toyota can't fix it.

Apparently...it's still a legitimate claim.

[CamaroScotty]

Maybe if they allowed people to be able to read their "black box" data......???? Why is it a secret? Ford, Chrysler, and GM allow it.

[The_Blur]

All anyone has is a name. When that name is ruined, so is that someone.

Toyota had a great name. It was the name of reliability; the name of safety; the name of resale. I never thought they were that great, but I couldn't deny the marketing genius that Toyota instilled in its customers and the world as a whole. Everyone believed the brand was safe to buy and safe to sell. Without any performance products, it was a bland, featureless contribution to the automotive industry. It had nothing really competitive, and yet it competed so aggressively in the showroom.

This catastrophe is built on the lies of its name. The whole Toyota monopoly on being the best brand ended when, ironically, cars began moving forward despite drivers putting on the brakes. Toyota was moving forward off a cliff. As we watch it freefall, we still see branded customers clinging to their Toyotas, believing in their products. Toyota has been cashing in its chips, claiming to have been behind its customers all along, but those of us following the automotive industry news know otherwise.

Toyota lied. It lied about safety. It lied about reliability. Somehow, it still translated into resale, but now those inflated resale numbers will match the reality that the company that built those cars was just a scheming, valueless name.

What's in a name? Some companies put their values behind a name. When those names are tarnished, they can earn the name back. Others hide behind the lies they say their names represent. Toyota is a lie.

[Class1E]

Originally Posted by a_Username

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35765822/ns/business-autos

Seems Toyota is trying to defend itself. Their whole argument centered around it not being able to happen in real world situations, but IMO if they recreate it, then it is possible it could happen.

You have got to be sh***ing me! First, they try to blow off the whole issue like it's nothing. Now, they've hired a crack squad of idiots that will apparently fabricate proof of anything for the right price. I'm embarrassed that this Exponent is a supposed ENGINEERING consulting company if that piece about secondhand smoke is true. I'm afraid this is going to get really ugly before all is said and done.

[fazm]

http://jalopnik.com/5488716/out+of+c...nia-patrol-car

add this

[ron10]

i think i need my boots.it is getting deeper.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Class1E

You have got to be shitting me! First, they try to put off the whole issue like it's nothing. Now, they've hired a crack squad of idiots that will apparently fabricate proof of anything for the right price. I'm afraid this is going to get really ugly before all is said and done.

I noticed that. Their trying to use an old-fashioned propaganda trick, but that same trick can be used right back at them lol.

[DGthe3]

wouldn't be the first time a team of reporter have fudged a problem to guarantee it will happen on camera.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

wouldn't be the first time a team of reporter have fudged a problem to guarantee it will happen on camera.

Only one outside expert agreed with Toyota's criticims, but still admitted that this recreation still shows a possibility if it being accurate. I get your point, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. A little more information is needed to reach that conclusion.

[Class1E]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

wouldn't be the first time a team of reporter have fudged a problem to guarantee it will happen on camera.

That may be, but they still haven't addressed the cause of people not being able to stop the cars. In any car, even at WOT, the brakes should be able to overcome the engine and stop the car. C&D tested it on a Toyota Camry and from closed throttle to WOT, the distance required to stop the car from 100 mph only increased from 347 ft to 435 ft...less than 100 ft! Even a 540 hp supercharged Ford Mustang was able to stop at WOT; it took about 3x the distance as at closed throttle, but the point is, the brakes still stopped the car.

[DGthe3]

I just sound to me an awful lot like the exploding saddle tanks on GM's trucks a in the early 90's. There was a real problem, but it was recrated with artificial means (in that case, explosives). This is a less blatant, but in both cases they are duplicating the results, not the circumstances. Duplicate the circumstances and the results, and Toyota has no basis for contention.

[a_Username]

You may be right DG. In a related article, Toyota has called this a straight-up hoax.
http://jalopnik.com/5488464/the-mech...eleration-hoax

Toyota today slammed the mechanics behind Brian Ross' ABC News report on unintended acceleration, showing how they were manipulated by recreating the same fault on a Chevy, Mercedes, Honda and Ford. Here's how the hoax occurred.

The Toyota press conference held this morning and broadcast to anyone who would listen was a sign beige is fighting back smartly by pivoting media focus to the most ridiculous report — that done by ABC News. Toyota walked reporters through each step of Brian Ross's now-famous "Toyota Death Ride," which they're calling "a careful and deliberate manipulation."

ABC News' report relied on a study by Prof. David Gilbert of Southern Illinois University-Carbondale who not only manipulated the sensors within a Camry to draw his conclusions and create the famous video — he was paid by a trial lawyer group with pending litigation against Toyota to do so. The Toyota response used a Professor from Stanford — i.e. a university you've heard of — who pointed out the electronic throttle was modified in a way unlikely to ever occur in the real world. And while he — or at least the Stanford team that pays his salary — was paid for by Toyota, he was at least up-front about it.

(Pictures of how the manipulation could have taken place. Can't copy the image location)

To see how just how unlikely the situation is, click through the gallery above to see how many simultaneous steps they're saying Dr, Gilbert had to undertake in order to duplicate the Camry-of-death. Specifically, how Gilbert cut three wires within the electronic throttle control system, then connected two of the wires to each other in a specific pattern and with a specific resistor to create a link between two final wires with a switch in between so he can control it.

"As engineers, we can rewire anything, but that's not realistic. Automakers shouldn't be forced to design for events that won't happen in nature," said Center for Automotive Research at Stanford.

To prove the pont they performed the exact same steps on a Chevy Malibu, Mercedes E Class, Honda Accord, Subaru Outback BMW 325i, Ford Fusion, and Chrysler Crossfire and were able to demonstrate the same results as Brian Ross experienced in his report. Unintended acceleration without an error code. You can see it with the BMW below.

(Non-youtube video link)

They also took time to point what has already been made clear, specifically how Brian Ross faked the video of the tachometer revving to 6200 RPM in park to make it seem like the car was accelerating out of control, compared to just 3000 RPM in the revised ABC video.

And they didn't stop there. Toyota made mention of Sean Kane and his relationship to trial lawyers pursuing litigation against the company:

"Toyota Statement:As revealed in their testimony before Congress, Professor Gilbert's Preliminary Report was commissioned by Sean Kane, a paid advocate for trial lawyers involved in litigation against Toyota and other automakers. Mr. Kane also appeared on the ABC News broadcast in support of the claim that Professor Gilbert's demonstration revealed a flaw in the electronic throttle control system that could lead to "runaway" Toyota and Lexus vehicles. The relationship between Mr. Kane, Professor Gilbert and the trial lawyers who support Mr. Kane's advocacy was not revealed by ABC News during the newscast, nor was Toyota offered an opportunity to view the demonstration or given time to respond."

If ABC News asked about this, and there's no evidence they did, it should have been included in the report. Bias is fine as long its acknowledged bias. For instance, the representatives of Stanford mentioned Toyota had contributed support to their research in the past, though denied there was any link or that they provided funding for the university's analysis.

Between the video, examples, reports and slideshows it's a fairly thorough smackdown of ABC News. Of course, the big issue it doesn't address is the possibility of a software issue, which other individuals have raised. It seems like Toyota is going out of their way to pile on what they think is obviously misleading reporting while not holding a similar light on those other claims.

They also don't address the issue of their cars being so soulless and boring no one knows how to drive anymore.

They're still attacking credibility, even though the person doing with research is funded by Toyota. I don't know who to believe honestly... But I seem to lean towards the original claim of electronical problems. There are still reports of unintended acceleration, even after they have reportedly been fixed. So if it wasn't mechanical, and there is at least some sort of evidence towards electronical, that would be the logical place to look wouldn't it?

[The_Blur]

On the way home from work, I passed a truck that said "Toyota Quality Parts Express" on the side.