[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Let's not do that, please...if GM finds this thread, I'd like them to actually glean some information from it...not watch a bunch of bickering enthusiasts throw poo.

Originally Posted by mjk3888

Fair enough.

Waiting for this 1LE, 2SS or not, is making me lose my mind.

Maybe there's someone on my lawn. HAHA!

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by crabman

I don't think so, those that would like to make the jump and those that can are very different things. While Jedi can, most cant. What you want and what you can have are two different things.

The ZL1 also isn't just a little different, its much more potent in every way and contains a number of bespoke parts so I don't see too many ZL1 buyers moving down to 2SS1LE simply to save ching. If they were closer it would be a lot easier for me to get on board with this one.



Thats the funny part. Some years back toward the start of C6 the C6Z boys took everything out of a loaded car that wasn't in base car (yes, the purist were saying the loaded cars were for sissies) and weighed it. 14 lbs, or not even a quarter tank of gas. So much for the unworthy for track duty because of excess weight argument. I don't know the numbers here but it's going to be similar if we compare the models with the same transmission. The weight was never the reason, it is meaningless.

While I'm typing lets pop one more bubble. If the track time is oh so important and nothing else matters then the car should be automatic only. They are faster. I don't want an auto but I'm saying that the logic for 1SS only because its a track beast and we cant have anything slowing the car down doesn't play well with equipping it with a transmission that is going to make the car slower at the track. Seems like something more is at play...

1) you know there are guys throwing lightweight batteries in their cars to shed 14lbs right? And it's entirely conjecture on your behalf since neither of us have any idea what a 2ss vs. 1ss 1LE weighs. Weight is weight though and it looks as if the 1LE will already gain weight over a standard 1SS, therefore adding 2SS to it might mitigate some of the performance benefits of the track package. However this is entirely conjecture on my behalf

2) Thats simply not true. We have yet to see an auto stand up to 20-30 mins of hard laps on a hot day by a good driver. The gen 5 1LE track rats are adding oil coolers to those cars to keep the engine temp down. You really think throwing an auto in there is a good idea?

[thebiglubinsky]

$50 says 80% of 1LE's will never see a track...

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

BREAKING NEWS!!!

A 2SS OPTION ON THE 1LE WON'T CAUSE THE 1SS TO BE SLOWER!!!



I'm not looking to shave tenths off a lap time. I'm looking to shave the 3 full seconds off the standard SS's lap time and retain 2SS daily driving luxuries!

also a 6th gen 2SS 1LE would still be significantly lighter than a 5th gen 1SS 1LE.

Thoughts? Comments?

And I'd like to get Z06 performance out of my Ford Ranger......
Since you have no idea what a 6th gen 1LE weighs and there won't be a 2SS 1LE to weigh ever your second statement is just guessing.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by thebiglubinsky

$50 says 80% of 1LE's will never see a track...

Also true. SO with the already awesome performance of the 6th gen why don't you guys who want a 2ss just get a 2ss? Put MRC on it and I doubt the average driver will even be able to tell the difference. I don't think it going to be like the 5th gen where the 1LE knocked the socks off the regular ss

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by Thor142

And I'd like to get Z06 performance out of my Ford Ranger......
Since you have no idea what a 6th gen 1LE weighs and there won't be a 2SS 1LE to weigh ever your second statement is just guessing.

I think if you weighed a 1SS against a 2SS you would get a pretty good idea of the weight difference between a 1SS-1LE and a 2SS-1LE. Close enough for government work anyway.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by Thor142

Also true. SO with the already awesome performance of the 6th gen why don't you guys who want a 2ss just get a 2ss? Put MRC on it and I doubt the average driver will even be able to tell the difference. I don't think it going to be like the 5th gen where the 1LE knocked the socks off the regular ss

Thor, the 1LE will be more than a 2SS Camaro with MRC. Suspension pieces will be more track oriented derived from the ZL1. The elec. rear differential is not available on the 2SS Camaro. The six piston Brembos and larger rotor are standard as are the Recaro seats which have not been made an option for the SS yet. The wider 285 front tires and 305 rear tires mounted on absolutely beautiful forged rims. The 1LE will be more track tuned than a 1SS/2SS Camaro. It will be a much different car from the 2SS with MRC.

[crabman]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

That is actually incorrect as the vast majority of SS 1LE owners who will track their cars will be autocrossing them. Autos, even good ones, are simply just not intuitive enough to work as well as a manual on a small, tight track like that...I can speak from years and years of autocross experience.

Furthermore, if you are talking a larger road course, the above is still partly the case. But, the biggest issue the autos have is overheating problems. People who have tracked their auto 6th gens have already reported this as an issue. My friends went into limp mode after about seven hard laps. GM did right by making the 1LE's manual only...

It was a concept man, I was discussing the logic of it. I already said I don't want it. I'm seeing quite a bit of contradictory information on the A8 in terms of its overheating here and people are borrowing some of that from the Vette which is an entirely different cooling package. But of course I do expect everything to work in a car in its intended use so that automatic in my example of logic should be working just as the engine should be running either way. I'l be somewhat covering the rest of that next but I want to make sure that we are comparing apples to apples because Chevy and people here are touting road course times, not autocross.

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I think the phrase "Automatic is faster at the track" has been become far too common of a statement, even being mentioned in reviews. This isn't accurate. The statement should read "Automatic is faster in straight line acceleration from a stop"

I'm not really sure I can think of any other circumstances in which an automatic car has out performed an indentical car equipped with a Manual trans.

The weak link of the manual transmission is the initial launch. It's much harder to modulate throttle and clutch engagement simultaneously even with modern launch control assists.

Uh uh. When I was at Spring Mountain every single person without exception went faster in the automatic. They told me that no student had ever been faster in the stick up to that date. And that was back with the A6 which isn't as good a trans as the A8 no matter how you rate the latter. I love driving a stick, there isn't a chance I would choose the auto no matter how well it works but I'm also not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that any of us are going to go faster with it out on a road course. It isn't just a matter of unloading driver work, it has a significant gearing advantage.

Originally Posted by Thor142

1) you know there are guys throwing lightweight batteries in their cars to shed 14lbs right? And it's entirely conjecture on your behalf since neither of us have any idea what a 2ss vs. 1ss 1LE weighs. Weight is weight though and it looks as if the 1LE will already gain weight over a standard 1SS, therefore adding 2SS to it might mitigate some of the performance benefits of the track package. However this is entirely conjecture on my behalf

2) Thats simply not true. We have yet to see an auto stand up to 20-30 mins of hard laps on a hot day by a good driver. The gen 5 1LE track rats are adding oil coolers to those cars to keep the engine temp down. You really think throwing an auto in there is a good idea?

Of course I know, I actually grew up in a garage where my dad was what used to be called the head mechanic. I first went out on a track as a passenger when I could barely see over the hood. I live and breathe cars and have all my life. None of those things give me expertise but they have made me aware that people will go to great extremes trying to remove weight.

That battery as a part of removing the rear seats and anything else that can be jettisoned might actually make a measurable difference on the track depending on just how much weight ended up getting tossed. By itself its meaningless. As to conjecture I said "I don't know the numbers here but they will be similar" and that is correct. It is not conjecture, they would be similar. Dimming rear view mirrors just don't weigh much more than the non dimming variety.

For your last it's back to the start... Logic dudes, logic. I was discussing the logic of it. That logic assumes they both actually work just as it assumes the engine is going to start on both, they will both have wheels, so on. If you care about track time only and thats your God then you should be clamoring for the (working) automatic because nearly everyone will go faster with it. I'm only saying nearly because its possible Senna may be reincarnated and end up driving a manual 1LE around a track faster than an automatic.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by OldJedi

Thor, the 1LE will be more than a 2SS Camaro with MRC. Suspension pieces will be more track oriented derived from the ZL1. The elec. rear differential is not available on the 2SS Camaro. The six piston Brembos and larger rotor are standard as are the Recaro seats which have not been made an option for the SS yet. The wider 285 front tires and 305 rear tires mounted on absolutely beautiful forged rims. The 1LE will be more track tuned than a 1SS/2SS Camaro. It will be a much different car from the 2SS with MRC.

Thanks I know what the concept of a 1LE is. I have one.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the regular SS is so good this generation that I don't think people who aren't tracking are really going to be taking advantage of all that. SO a 2SS is probably what you want for DD with all the bells and whistles and an occasional track day.

I've been wrong once or twice before.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by crabman

I'm only saying nearly because its possible Senna may be reincarnated and end up driving a manual 1LE around a track faster than an automatic.

OK thats funny. You win the internet today.

I'm highly skeptical the A6 slushbox piece of garbage was faster on a track than a manual. That was one of the worst trannys I ever had.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Thor142

OK thats funny. You win the internet today.

I'm highly skeptical the A6 slushbox piece of garbage was faster on a track than a manual. That was one of the worst trannys I ever had.

Agreed. Even in a straight line the 5th gen manuals were quicker than the automatics stock for stock. The only way I see a automatic being quicker on a autocross or road course is if the driver isn't that talented as it takes some of the workload off the driver.

I do autocross monthly, and there are many, many cars at the events. 90% of the class winners are always manuals...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by OldJedi

I think if you weighed a 1SS against a 2SS you would get a pretty good idea of the weight difference between a 1SS-1LE and a 2SS-1LE. Close enough for government work anyway.

Originally Posted by OldJedi

Thor, the 1LE will be more than a 2SS Camaro with MRC. Suspension pieces will be more track oriented derived from the ZL1. The elec. rear differential is not available on the 2SS Camaro. The six piston Brembos and larger rotor are standard as are the Recaro seats which have not been made an option for the SS yet. The wider 285 front tires and 305 rear tires mounted on absolutely beautiful forged rims. The 1LE will be more track tuned than a 1SS/2SS Camaro. It will be a much different car from the 2SS with MRC.

Originally Posted by Thor142

Thanks I know what the concept of a 1LE is. I have one.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the regular SS is so good this generation that I don't think people who aren't tracking are really going to be taking advantage of all that. SO a 2SS is probably what you want for DD with all the bells and whistles and an occasional track day.

I've been wrong once or twice before.

You're right, and you're wrong...I'll use myself as an example. I have driven these 6th gen cars, and I'll tell you that I'd be dissatisfied with the performance of the SS on the track. It is GOOD...but I drive harder than that car can deal with...I cut my teeth on a ZL1, and now I've got a wannabe Z/28 setup...2SS with MR isn't going to cut it.

Yet, I daily drive the car, as well. Recaros, quickly-wearing tires and all. A 1SS interior just won't satisfy me, either.

So I would want a 2SS equipment group to satisfy the daily driver duty...and I want the 1LE driving dynamic to satisfy the inner track enthusiast. Will a 1SS be faster due to weight? Maybe...but for the fraction of a second faster it will be...I won't notice, because as hard as I drive the car, I'm no professional.

And in any measure, a 2SS/1LE will still be lighter and more nimble than the car I have today, so even 50 lbs won't make a difference to me.

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

I do autocross monthly, and there are many, many cars at the events. 90% of the class winners are always manuals...

Disclaimer: I'm not arguing.

I wonder how many of the cars competing are manual vs automatic. If it was 50/50, your point would be very impressive....I'm betting it's not 50/50, though.

Still......folks.....not an auto/manual debate.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Thor142

And I'd like to get Z06 performance out of my Ford Ranger......
Since you have no idea what a 6th gen 1LE weighs and there won't be a 2SS 1LE to weigh ever your second statement is just guessing.

Originally Posted by OldJedi

I think if you weighed a 1SS against a 2SS you would get a pretty good idea of the weight difference between a 1SS-1LE and a 2SS-1LE. Close enough for government work anyway.

Originally Posted by OldJedi

Thor, the 1LE will be more than a 2SS Camaro with MRC. Suspension pieces will be more track oriented derived from the ZL1. The elec. rear differential is not available on the 2SS Camaro. The six piston Brembos and larger rotor are standard as are the Recaro seats which have not been made an option for the SS yet. The wider 285 front tires and 305 rear tires mounted on absolutely beautiful forged rims. The 1LE will be more track tuned than a 1SS/2SS Camaro. It will be a much different car from the 2SS with MRC.

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I think the phrase "Automatic is faster at the track" has been become far too common of a statement, even being mentioned in reviews. This isn't accurate. The statement should read "Automatic is faster in straight line acceleration from a stop"

I'm not really sure I can think of any other circumstances in which an automatic car has out performed an indentical car equipped with a Manual trans.

The weak link of the manual transmission is the initial launch. It's much harder to modulate throttle and clutch engagement simultaneously even with modern launch control assists.

Originally Posted by Thor142

Uh uh. When I was at Spring Mountain every single person without exception went faster in the automatic. They told me that no student had ever been faster in the stick up to that date. And that was back with the A6 which isn't as good a trans as the A8 no matter how you rate the latter. I love driving a stick, there isn't a chance I would choose the auto no matter how well it works but I'm also not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that any of us are going to go faster with it out on a road course. It isn't just a matter of unloading driver work, it has a significant gearing advantage.

Absolutely true! The A8 is a great piece!

I'm thinking in more general terms than specifically these two transmissions available in the Camaro.

Do you think the auto would still outperform a manual if gearing was identical? I think with a moderately skilled driver, same track, and same conditions, the manual would come out on top.

Irregardless we are both opting for the manual. I assume you're probably doing it for the same reason I am. The driver involvement.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

You're right, and you're wrong...I'll use myself as an example. I have driven these 6th gen cars, and I'll tell you that I'd be dissatisfied with the performance of the SS on the track. It is GOOD...but I drive harder than that car can deal with...I cut my teeth on a ZL1, and now I've got a wannabe Z/28 setup...2SS with MR isn't going to cut it.

Yet, I daily drive the car, as well. Recaros, quickly-wearing tires and all. A 1SS interior just won't satisfy me, either.

So I would want a 2SS equipment group to satisfy the daily driver duty...and I want the 1LE driving dynamic to satisfy the inner track enthusiast. Will a 1SS be faster due to weight? Maybe...but for the fraction of a second faster it will be...I won't notice, because as hard as I drive the car, I'm no professional.

And in any measure, a 2SS/1LE will still be lighter and more nimble than the car I have today, so even 50 lbs won't make a difference to me.


Disclaimer: I'm not arguing.

I wonder how many of the cars competing are manual vs automatic. If it was 50/50, your point would be very impressive....I'm betting it's not 50/50, though.

Still......folks.....not an auto/manual debate.

Mr.Wyndam, I think you push your car harder than 90% of 1LE owners out there. I'll agree that people like you may have a case for a 2SS 1LE. I don't think there are very many people who will truly ever know the limits of a 6th gen SS never mind arguing that they need a 2ss 1LE.
There must be a logical reason GM is only offering it 1 way and I suspect, based on the fact that I'm an anonymous person on the internet and therefore know everything () that it's to make it easy to produce and keep the price down.