Spoiler for track duty?

oneplustwo · 02-22-2019, 11:04 PM

Hey all,

I've been tracking my 2018 SS 1LE since I got it about 6 months ago and it's been great. (For reference, I'm around 1:51 or 1:52 at Sonoma bone stock.) All my previous cars have required modding to be track ready and although I'm really happy with the car, I almost wish there was something I HAD to do to make it track worthy. Many of you are familiar with this "itch."

I was thinking about the ZL1 1LE spoiler but it's expensive and also doesn't match up with the SS 1LE holes. I considered a wicker bill but I'm not a huge fan of the look and frankly, it seems like the drag/down force ratio would be a lot worse than a proper spoiler. (Pure conjecture on my part.)

So my main question to the experts here... will either spoiler make much difference on track? And if so, which one would you go with?

I also considered a front splitter upgrade but this is also my daily driver and it's already hard enough driving around being careful not to crash it into something. I'd consider the dive planes though the ones I've seen all looks kinda cheesy compared to the ZL1 1LE ones. Any thoughts on those would be appreciated as well.

RideZX6R · 02-22-2019, 11:32 PM

The 1LE spoiler was rumored to be functional if only a bit last I heard.

If you don't like the ZL1-1LE (which is proven functional) or the wickerbill (which is functionally proven on other cars, but not sure if it is on a Camaro)...

then basically you're looking for like an APR style wing... Everything else I'm aware of is purely cosmetic.

I think the best question would be, are you loosing traction or getting "wiggle" at high speeds (ie do you even *need* additional downforce) ?

TrackClub · 02-23-2019, 12:55 AM

Good question (above). Imo the car is balanced superbly so if you add downforce to the rear without properly balancing the front: you will get more understeer and slower laps.

If you must spend money on something get another set of rims and slicks. That is if you are after track pace vs looks.

My 2 cents

Move_Over · 02-23-2019, 02:47 AM

Typically if you’re going to look for more grip, it should be mechanical grip - then when you’re out of mechanical grip get some aerodynamic grip. So like track club said, get yourself a set of wheels with slicks or stickier tires, progress then reassess. Throwing a front or rear spoiler on may upset the balance of the car.

I would have a more tenured driver drive your car, see if there’s time left on the track before adjusting anything. Then ask yourself what you feel like the car is doing on track to merit any changes? For me, on stock tires i felt a touch of entry understeer (like many production cars) so i added more tire up front to increase grip on turn in and add a touch more oversteer. This car you have to be super careful not to make uneducated changes on since it is SO well setup from factory. You don’t want to make it worse! But i get it, i like modding too. I’ve had a hard time not messing around with the car too haha.

Norm Peterson · 02-23-2019, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Move_Over

I would have a more tenured driver drive your car, see if there’s time left on the track before adjusting anything. Then ask yourself what you feel like the car is doing on track to merit any changes?

This ↑↑↑

You could even start with the 'asking yourself' part. Otherwise, you're mostly throwing parts at the car that sound like they ought to help and hoping for the best.

After seat time, tires (and wheels) is usually the best place to start looking for improvement. Are you ready to run a track-dedicated set of wheels and tires? At least track plus only the travel to/from the event?

Norm

TrackClub · 02-23-2019, 08:45 AM

Seanblurr did a 1:49.2 in a stock 17 SS 1le at Sonoma so there is still pace left out of modding the nut behind the wheel

Having said that, modding can be fun for sure. This is my first car i drive bone stock, because i dont want to spoil a good thing having fun with Porsches costing multiples...nor invalidating its full track warranty.

A famous pro once said that pace by and large depends on:
1) power to weight ratio
2) tires
3) driver
Not necessarily in that order...

Aero is a difficult process as it can affect balance significantly if not done right. It also always adds drag. So unless a driver is capable of pushing a car further in fast sweepers (where aero plays a part), then laptimes may actually suffer. Not as easy as it sounds, as most overdrive slow corners and underdrive fast ones.

Not aware of a street tire much faster than stock G3s to make a significant difference (apart from a very expensive Trofeo R), but DH Pirelli take offs are a no brainer, no risk mod - if gaining seconds is a goal.
PS i havent gone this route as i dont have easy access to scrubs - unlike you guys. Besides i am too old (and my ego a bit less sensitive these days), to frig with changing wheels twice a day at a track. But if i could get scrubs...well...maybe i would lol

As far as understeer (on an already well balanced car) it is almost always driver induced. Usually by being too greedy on entry and/or not trail braking as effectively as one could. Note Provoste doesnt complain about it and neither does Randy Pobst. To the contrary: he praises the car's balance in all his vids.

NB going with a square set up doesnt change a balance on a 1le. Whatever small tire grip changes this introduces F vs R is mitigated by lowering the car's rake and hence introducing more inherent platform stability on turn in especially. To me the car feels exactly the same. One tiny difference could be in fast sweepers perhaps where managing rear grip might be a wee bit more sensitive. But that's splitting hairs.

Whatever you decide: have bags of fun! That's the most important aspect of this hobby.

oneplustwo · 02-23-2019, 05:24 PM

Excellent, well thought out responses. Thanks for all the input! I think I have a 1:50 in me after a few more days. Maybe 1:49 someday.

I've studied Seanblurr's videos and certainly still have improvement on my end. Need to get on the throttle earlier in some corners (mostly 6 and 11) and I'm still scared of turn 10. I'm sure there are tenths all over the rest of the track as well.

I've considered stickier rubber but I do like the simplicity of not having to swap AND I think the stockers are a phenomenal deal for an already high level of performance.

So I guess I'm at square 1 again with nothing to upgrade except myself. Boo...

Maybe I'll just save my pennies and get a used C8 Vette in a few years!

TrackClub · 02-23-2019, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneplustwo

Excellent, well thought out responses. Thanks for all the input! I think I have a 1:50 in me after a few more days. Maybe 1:49 someday.

I've studied Seanblurr's videos and certainly still have improvement on my end. Need to get on the throttle earlier in some corners (mostly 6 and 11) and I'm still scared of turn 10. I'm sure there are tenths all over the rest of the track as well.

I've considered stickier rubber but I do like the simplicity of not having to swap AND I think the stockers are a phenomenal deal for an already high level of performance.

So I guess I'm at square 1 again with nothing to upgrade except myself. Boo...

Maybe I'll just save my pennies and get a used C8 Vette in a few years!

Haha! Not a bad plan if you ask me. I think C8 is going to be something very special.

MoreSpeed · 02-24-2019, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneplustwo

Excellent, well thought out responses. Thanks for all the input! I think I have a 1:50 in me after a few more days. Maybe 1:49 someday.

I've studied Seanblurr's videos and certainly still have improvement on my end. Need to get on the throttle earlier in some corners (mostly 6 and 11) and I'm still scared of turn 10. I'm sure there are tenths all over the rest of the track as well.

I've considered stickier rubber but I do like the simplicity of not having to swap AND I think the stockers are a phenomenal deal for an already high level of performance.

So I guess I'm at square 1 again with nothing to upgrade except myself. Boo...

Maybe I'll just save my pennies and get a used C8 Vette in a few years!

Maybe invest in a data recorder. If you are willing to analyze, it will give you lots of actionable data that could improve your times. It is especially helpful if you can have other skilled drivers drive your car over the same course so you can compare data to see things like where are they carrying more speed.

TrackClub · 02-24-2019, 11:14 AM

I think fast guys posting vids here is a great tool to look for improvement areas. That's what makes PDR so great.
When somebody is off by a few seconds it should be fairly easy to find big chunks. If that delta is relatively small - not so much - albeit it is still a very useful exercise.

Personally i would not hand my car to *anyone* and say: go balls out to establish a fast lap telemetry for me.
Zero chance of this happening! Zilch, niet, nada!
But comparing telemetry between various cars and drivers (on similar tires) can yield good info for sure.

One thing to keep in mind is level of skill. Just because a driver X can enter a given corner at speed Y does not automatically mean that i could do it safely. I may not have sufficient skill to keep a car properly balanced at that speed. And bad things may happen.

So, imo, it comes down to seat time and skill. When those are well developed, a driver should sense when they leave pace on the table either by over or under driving a car. Then focus on correcting same on future laps.

Track familiarity also plays a role here. But an ability to feel the car for its limits (driver skill) trumps that. Some folks run at single venues and over time they become very familiar with them. And possibly very fast. But a truly fast driver will be respectfully fast at any venue after learning it say over 2 or 3 sessions. Not 2 or 3 months, or seasons. But obviously practice makes perfect as they say, so pace will increase even further with time.

Going to new venues is an excellent test (and development) of one's skill level as one really needs to lean hard on their driving skill to test the track limits. Versus the other way around.

Just food for thought by an armchair expert of sorts

oneplustwo · 02-24-2019, 12:16 PM

My PDR is not working right... at the dealer now hoping it will be fixed soon. There's no audio, it doesn't recognize the track, and the video quality is crap. But once it's fixed, I plan to do a side by side with Seanblurr to see where the biggest opportunities are. It's not as good as a real data recorder, but I'm not sure I'm willing to invest in one quite yet. That said, I haven't looked into them at all so I have no idea what the investment even is! Any suggestions on which ones to check out?

Scargoes · 02-24-2019, 06:59 PM

When you get your PDR working properly, Check out HiPoDriver on youtube for his Cosworth Pi Toolbox videos. The data you can look at with the old free version will be very helpful.

Move_Over · 02-24-2019, 07:10 PM

Yeah Cosworth gives a ton of data to analyze. Well worth the download

oneplustwo · 02-24-2019, 09:29 PM

It’s PC only I believe. And I’m Mac only unfortunately. Although I do have an older PC in a closet somewhere I think.

02-22-2019, 11:04 PM	#1
oneplustwo Drives: 2018 Torch Red SS 1LE with Whipple Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: San Francisco Posts: 168	Spoiler for track duty? Hey all, I've been tracking my 2018 SS 1LE since I got it about 6 months ago and it's been great. (For reference, I'm around 1:51 or 1:52 at Sonoma bone stock.) All my previous cars have required modding to be track ready and although I'm really happy with the car, I almost wish there was something I HAD to do to make it track worthy. Many of you are familiar with this "itch." I was thinking about the ZL1 1LE spoiler but it's expensive and also doesn't match up with the SS 1LE holes. I considered a wicker bill but I'm not a huge fan of the look and frankly, it seems like the drag/down force ratio would be a lot worse than a proper spoiler. (Pure conjecture on my part.) So my main question to the experts here... will either spoiler make much difference on track? And if so, which one would you go with? I also considered a front splitter upgrade but this is also my daily driver and it's already hard enough driving around being careful not to crash it into something. I'd consider the dive planes though the ones I've seen all looks kinda cheesy compared to the ZL1 1LE ones. Any thoughts on those would be appreciated as well.

02-22-2019, 11:32 PM	#2
RideZX6R Probably tired right now Drives: 1Lap1LE \| EV6 FE \| 18 F150 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: At the office (CLT, NC) Posts: 1,133	The 1LE spoiler was rumored to be functional if only a bit last I heard. If you don't like the ZL1-1LE (which is proven functional) or the wickerbill (which is functionally proven on other cars, but not sure if it is on a Camaro)... then basically you're looking for like an APR style wing... Everything else I'm aware of is purely cosmetic. I think the best question would be, are you loosing traction or getting "wiggle" at high speeds (ie do you even need additional downforce) ? __________________ -Seven '17 SS 1LE - 1LAP 1LE (Now with more 427!) '18 F150 Platinum Powerstroke diesel '22 Kia EV6 First Edition '18 RS3 (1 of 2) Cumulus Blue '24 911 T (ordered) Formers... '19 RS5 Sportback Sonoma Green \| '07 Cayman S 6MT \| '16 Audi S3 Prestige Viper Green (APR Stage 3+) \| '19 Mustang Shelby GT350R \| '17 SS 1LE MBM 575whp all-motor

02-24-2019, 06:59 PM	#12
Scargoes Drives: 2018 Hyper Blue 2SS 1LE Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Dessert Posts: 486	When you get your PDR working properly, Check out HiPoDriver on youtube for his Cosworth Pi Toolbox videos. The data you can look at with the old free version will be very helpful. __________________ 2018 Hyper Blue Metallic 2SS 1LE with Nav, PDR, and track alignment 1:34.20 Willow Springs Big Track

02-23-2019, 12:55 AM	#3
TrackClub Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canada, eh! Posts: 5,091	Good question (above). Imo the car is balanced superbly so if you add downforce to the rear without properly balancing the front: you will get more understeer and slower laps. If you must spend money on something get another set of rims and slicks. That is if you are after track pace vs looks. My 2 cents

02-23-2019, 02:47 AM	#4
Move_Over Drives: ISO ss 1le Join Date: May 2018 Location: FL Posts: 764	Typically if you’re going to look for more grip, it should be mechanical grip - then when you’re out of mechanical grip get some aerodynamic grip. So like track club said, get yourself a set of wheels with slicks or stickier tires, progress then reassess. Throwing a front or rear spoiler on may upset the balance of the car. I would have a more tenured driver drive your car, see if there’s time left on the track before adjusting anything. Then ask yourself what you feel like the car is doing on track to merit any changes? For me, on stock tires i felt a touch of entry understeer (like many production cars) so i added more tire up front to increase grip on turn in and add a touch more oversteer. This car you have to be super careful not to make uneducated changes on since it is SO well setup from factory. You don’t want to make it worse! But i get it, i like modding too. I’ve had a hard time not messing around with the car too haha.

02-23-2019, 08:45 AM	#6
TrackClub Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canada, eh! Posts: 5,091	Seanblurr did a 1:49.2 in a stock 17 SS 1le at Sonoma so there is still pace left out of modding the nut behind the wheel Having said that, modding can be fun for sure. This is my first car i drive bone stock, because i dont want to spoil a good thing having fun with Porsches costing multiples...nor invalidating its full track warranty. A famous pro once said that pace by and large depends on: 1) power to weight ratio 2) tires 3) driver Not necessarily in that order... Aero is a difficult process as it can affect balance significantly if not done right. It also always adds drag. So unless a driver is capable of pushing a car further in fast sweepers (where aero plays a part), then laptimes may actually suffer. Not as easy as it sounds, as most overdrive slow corners and underdrive fast ones. Not aware of a street tire much faster than stock G3s to make a significant difference (apart from a very expensive Trofeo R), but DH Pirelli take offs are a no brainer, no risk mod - if gaining seconds is a goal. PS i havent gone this route as i dont have easy access to scrubs - unlike you guys. Besides i am too old (and my ego a bit less sensitive these days), to frig with changing wheels twice a day at a track. But if i could get scrubs...well...maybe i would lol As far as understeer (on an already well balanced car) it is almost always driver induced. Usually by being too greedy on entry and/or not trail braking as effectively as one could. Note Provoste doesnt complain about it and neither does Randy Pobst. To the contrary: he praises the car's balance in all his vids. NB going with a square set up doesnt change a balance on a 1le. Whatever small tire grip changes this introduces F vs R is mitigated by lowering the car's rake and hence introducing more inherent platform stability on turn in especially. To me the car feels exactly the same. One tiny difference could be in fast sweepers perhaps where managing rear grip might be a wee bit more sensitive. But that's splitting hairs. Whatever you decide: have bags of fun! That's the most important aspect of this hobby.

02-23-2019, 05:24 PM	#7
oneplustwo Drives: 2018 Torch Red SS 1LE with Whipple Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: San Francisco Posts: 168	Excellent, well thought out responses. Thanks for all the input! I think I have a 1:50 in me after a few more days. Maybe 1:49 someday. I've studied Seanblurr's videos and certainly still have improvement on my end. Need to get on the throttle earlier in some corners (mostly 6 and 11) and I'm still scared of turn 10. I'm sure there are tenths all over the rest of the track as well. I've considered stickier rubber but I do like the simplicity of not having to swap AND I think the stockers are a phenomenal deal for an already high level of performance. So I guess I'm at square 1 again with nothing to upgrade except myself. Boo... Maybe I'll just save my pennies and get a used C8 Vette in a few years!

02-24-2019, 11:14 AM	#10
TrackClub Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canada, eh! Posts: 5,091	I think fast guys posting vids here is a great tool to look for improvement areas. That's what makes PDR so great. When somebody is off by a few seconds it should be fairly easy to find big chunks. If that delta is relatively small - not so much - albeit it is still a very useful exercise. Personally i would not hand my car to anyone and say: go balls out to establish a fast lap telemetry for me. Zero chance of this happening! Zilch, niet, nada! But comparing telemetry between various cars and drivers (on similar tires) can yield good info for sure. One thing to keep in mind is level of skill. Just because a driver X can enter a given corner at speed Y does not automatically mean that i could do it safely. I may not have sufficient skill to keep a car properly balanced at that speed. And bad things may happen. So, imo, it comes down to seat time and skill. When those are well developed, a driver should sense when they leave pace on the table either by over or under driving a car. Then focus on correcting same on future laps. Track familiarity also plays a role here. But an ability to feel the car for its limits (driver skill) trumps that. Some folks run at single venues and over time they become very familiar with them. And possibly very fast. But a truly fast driver will be respectfully fast at any venue after learning it say over 2 or 3 sessions. Not 2 or 3 months, or seasons. But obviously practice makes perfect as they say, so pace will increase even further with time. Going to new venues is an excellent test (and development) of one's skill level as one really needs to lean hard on their driving skill to test the track limits. Versus the other way around. Just food for thought by an armchair expert of sorts

02-24-2019, 12:16 PM	#11
oneplustwo Drives: 2018 Torch Red SS 1LE with Whipple Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: San Francisco Posts: 168	My PDR is not working right... at the dealer now hoping it will be fixed soon. There's no audio, it doesn't recognize the track, and the video quality is crap. But once it's fixed, I plan to do a side by side with Seanblurr to see where the biggest opportunities are. It's not as good as a real data recorder, but I'm not sure I'm willing to invest in one quite yet. That said, I haven't looked into them at all so I have no idea what the investment even is! Any suggestions on which ones to check out?

02-24-2019, 07:10 PM	#13
Move_Over Drives: ISO ss 1le Join Date: May 2018 Location: FL Posts: 764	Yeah Cosworth gives a ton of data to analyze. Well worth the download

02-24-2019, 09:29 PM	#14
oneplustwo Drives: 2018 Torch Red SS 1LE with Whipple Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: San Francisco Posts: 168	It’s PC only I believe. And I’m Mac only unfortunately. Although I do have an older PC in a closet somewhere I think.

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