[N Camarolina]

Here's a question for all you track rats who drive an SS 1LE on OEM SC3 tires:

I've been tracking for 1 year so far and have now worked up my pace to the point where I am sometimes very close to the limit of tire adhesion (a few instances of beyond!). I therefore am trying to ensure I am as prepared as possible for oversteer (specifically oversteer) so that I can recognize when the rear tires are at their limit and/or the earliest phases of oversteer so that I can quickly correct with minimal drama.

I can easily sense when the front tires are at their limit, as the car begins taking a wider path than I'm inputting with the steering and the steering gets lighter. For the rear, it's a lot harder for me to tell when it's at the tipping point.

What feedback from the car are you guys sensing to help you identify when the rear traction has been maximized and is starting to go too far beyond toward excessive slip angle?

[Msquared]

There's not a ton of warning, honestly. The 1LE's active diff can sometimes ramp up the clutch pressure and lock the axles up a little too abruptly, which can lead to oversteer without much warning. However, that's a far bigger problem exiting very slow corners, and therefore in autocross runs rather than most road courses. Typically, on a road course the car has just a touch of understeer and is very stable. I think you'd have to be pretty awful with the inputs to get oversteer on corner entry, and if you get any power oversteer on exit you can quickly stop it by easing off the gas partially (not by abruptly letting off the throttle all the way).

ETA: I would highly recommend doing some autocross events, where you can safely explore and exceed the limits of either end and get a better feel for them.

[5.M0NSTER]

not a lot, which is why tuning you "butt gyro" to additional yaw is important. The 1LE is very predictable, and I do agree with Msquared that abrupt input, or simply pitching the car into the corner at too high speed is most likely to give you entry oversteer..... but it is SO controllable and SO addicting.

First time I went into race mode on a track I instantly forgot about the lap time, and simply enjoyed the slides the car allowed me to do. Both on the entry and exit side. Very BMW like.

But bottom line is there isn't a big tell most of the time. Perhaps a change in the pitch of the tire squeal, it gets higher right before the end lets go. More aggressive tires give even less warning from experience. So best bet is to get used to certain yaw @ certain corners (or at certain speed & steering wheel angle) and be ready to counter steer when it starts feeling like more.

[MatthewAMEL]

Echo what others have said...I describe my 1LE as a 'big, fat Miata'.


It's so forgiving and so freakin' fun to slide out of a corner. I have found a more progressive warning on the SC3's than some of the other tires I have run.


RE71's let go abruptly, 660s more gradually. SC3R's never let go...


Honestly, I use speed as the most reliable indicator. I know that's only helpful on a track you know, but at Sebring and Daytona, I can usually tell when it's going to step out based on entry speed.

[birdmanf16]

just put it in track mode, ptm race.....hit the apex and floor it. The car will step out a bit and make all the power corrections. you just make a slight steering input.

[Dabjbr]

Originally Posted by birdmanf16

just put it in track mode, ptm race.....hit the apex and floor it. The car will step out a bit and make all the power corrections. you just make a slight steering input.

I find that hard to believe… granted I haven’t tried that exact scenario as I’ve always naturally countered power oversteer with steering corrections AND partial throttle lift to regain control.

My belief is track race gives one a lot of angle to the point the driver has to make most corrections. Perhaps your s strategy of flooring it would be more applicable in sport or sport2? If I’m wrong, and you’re speaking from experience, let me know. Or maybe I’m simply misunderstanding your point.

Anyway, I find the 1le predictable in that I generally know when oversteer is likely… always caused by the driver and either power oversteer or lift off oversteer. Either way, I usually can anticipate it because I’m the one that caused it!

I too would recommend an event to let you better explore the limits. I’ve done one drift event just for that reason and it was a blast.

[2004YZFR1]

Originally Posted by birdmanf16

just put it in track mode, ptm race.....hit the apex and floor it. The car will step out a bit and make all the power corrections. you just make a slight steering input.

Can’t you still loop/ spin the car in the full race mode of the PTM? I was thinking that the lower levels of PTM above of race would let the car slip some but not spin.

I’ve only done 1 track day so I’m definitely not an expert on PTM modes.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by birdmanf16

just put it in track mode, ptm race.....hit the apex and floor it. The car will step out a bit and make all the power corrections. you just make a slight steering input.

Originally Posted by Dabjbr

I find that hard to believe… granted I haven’t tried that exact scenario as I’ve always naturally countered power oversteer with steering corrections AND partial throttle lift to regain control.

My belief is track race gives one a lot of angle to the point the driver has to make most corrections. Perhaps your s strategy of flooring it would be more applicable in sport or sport2? If I’m wrong, and you’re speaking from experience, let me know. Or maybe I’m simply misunderstanding your point.

Anyway, I find the 1le predictable in that I generally know when oversteer is likely… always caused by the driver and either power oversteer or lift off oversteer. Either way, I usually can anticipate it because I’m the one that caused it!

I too would recommend an event to let you better explore the limits. I’ve done one drift event just for that reason and it was a blast.

Originally Posted by 2004YZFR1

Can’t you still loop/ spin the car in the full race mode of the PTM? I was thinking that the lower levels of PTM above of race would let the car slip some but not spin.

I’ve only done 1 track day so I’m definitely not an expert on PTM modes.

No, he has a good point. This is the conclusion I came to as well. The fastest way out of a corner in a 1LE is to get the car to point in the direction you want to go, and stomp the throttle in PTM Race. Wheel slip is optimized for maximum forward acceleration.

Yes, you can still spin, but that's more likely because of how you entered the corner (how much rotation you have at corner entry or apex), than due to being on full throttle.

PTM is amazing, it's like cheating. If the vehicle is fairly stable with little steering input when you floor it, there isn't that much excess yaw to manage.

There is a hairpin turn at one of my local home tracks, and I realized that the fastest way though it is to enter it a bit hot, tap the brakes just before the apex to induce rotation, get the car to point out, and floor it even if I'm still a bit sideways.

[juice3]

Originally Posted by Dabjbr

I find that hard to believe… granted I haven’t tried that exact scenario as I’ve always naturally countered power oversteer with steering corrections AND partial throttle lift to regain control.

My belief is track race gives one a lot of angle to the point the driver has to make most corrections. Perhaps your s strategy of flooring it would be more applicable in sport or sport2? If I’m wrong, and you’re speaking from experience, let me know. Or maybe I’m simply misunderstanding your point.

I have taken many a student out in their zl1 1le and ss 1le and floored it in all the corners. Ease into WOT, but you can WOT the thing with complete disregard. Now I'm a bit more than advanced one might say and I am 100% prepared for the car to let go.


To the OP: Your in Cary, NC - get out to NCCAR and work on full nannies off and saving the car with couter steer. Build up to counter steer and keeping the throttle on. - Come up to Summit Point for a FATT and spend time in the Crown Vics where you can practice big time under/over steer situations.

Thes cars have fantastic PTM. Yes it will make you "look" like a better driver. One day you have to turn it off to get faster. SMOOTH even with PTM Modes will pay off.

[Barefoot Dave]

Originally Posted by juice3

I have taken many a student out in their zl1 1le and ss 1le and floored it in all the corners. Ease into WOT, but you can WOT the thing with complete disregard. Now I'm a bit more than advanced one might say and I am 100% prepared for the car to let go.


To the OP: Your in Cary, NC - get out to NCCAR and work on full nannies off and saving the car with counter steer. Build up to counter steer and keeping the throttle on. - Come up to Summit Point for a FATT and spend time in the Crown Vics where you can practice big time under/over steer situations.

These cars have fantastic PTM. Yes it will make you "look" like a better driver. One day you have to turn it off to get faster. SMOOTH even with PTM Modes will pay off.

I couldn't agree more with what BC (Juice 3) has to say here and we are fellow instructors at some tracks in the NE.

There is a great document out there that explains PTM in explicit detail that I give to all of my Camaro students- read it and understand it and with that knowledge and some decent instruction you will learn that the R&D that Al O and team put into these cars is truly amazing.

Good luck and be safe. Come on up to Summit Point for a FATT, SCCA or CHIN event and there is a good chance one of us could help you out.

[Nick S]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

Here's a question for all you track rats who drive an SS 1LE on OEM SC3 tires:

I've been tracking for 1 year so far and have now worked up my pace to the point where I am sometimes very close to the limit of tire adhesion (a few instances of beyond!). I therefore am trying to ensure I am as prepared as possible for oversteer (specifically oversteer) so that I can recognize when the rear tires are at their limit and/or the earliest phases of oversteer so that I can quickly correct with minimal drama.

I can easily sense when the front tires are at their limit, as the car begins taking a wider path than I'm inputting with the steering and the steering gets lighter. For the rear, it's a lot harder for me to tell when it's at the tipping point.

What feedback from the car are you guys sensing to help you identify when the rear traction has been maximized and is starting to go too far beyond toward excessive slip angle?

If you really want to be able to "feel" what the car is communicating to you, you first need to make sure you are fastened to the car really well. Getting a Schroth ASM harness and harness bar will be a great start. If you go this route I'd also highly recommend some sort of Head and Neck restraint then as well.

The tighter you are connected to your vehicle the easier it will be for you to sense when the car is starting to rotate. Then you just have to experience that sensation more to learn when the rotation is beneficial and when the rotation is starting to happen too quickly or too much.

Without having your butt glued to your drivers seat so you can feel the change in lateral G's and the car's rotation, you won't be able to sense when the oversteer is happening as easily.

That would be my suggestion for being able to feel the feedback the car is giving you.

[kropscamaro16]

Originally Posted by Nick S

If you really want to be able to "feel" what the car is communicating to you, you first need to make sure you are fastened to the car really well. Getting a Schroth ASM harness and harness bar will be a great start. If you go this route I'd also highly recommend some sort of Head and Neck restraint then as well.

The tighter you are connected to your vehicle the easier it will be for you to sense when the car is starting to rotate. Then you just have to experience that sensation more to learn when the rotation is beneficial and when the rotation is starting to happen too quickly or too much.

Without having your butt glued to your drivers seat so you can feel the change in lateral G's and the car's rotation, you won't be able to sense when the oversteer is happening as easily.

That would be my suggestion for being able to feel the feedback the car is giving you.

yup seat and harness and hans device was some of the best $$ i spent so far on my car next to my mcs coilovers

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by Msquared

I think you'd have to be pretty awful with the inputs to get oversteer on corner entry, and if you get any power oversteer on exit you can quickly stop it by easing off the gas partially (not by abruptly letting off the throttle all the way).

ETA: I would highly recommend doing some autocross events, where you can safely explore and exceed the limits of either end and get a better feel for them.

I have managed to get corner entry oversteer a few times with too much trail braking and/or too much entry speed for the corner but it was still controllable with counter steer. This is the most memorable time and of course I forgot to start the PDR recording so the telemetry is missing:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QApcdgZ7zps

Agreed on power exit oversteer, or you can keep your foot in it and countersteer more but lifting slightly (maybe by 20%) plus some countersteer is generally less risky.

Agreed on autocross. Keeping it in 1st gear will give you more practice with oversteer especially with SC3 tires that are cool/cold.

IMO the harness is not necessary although it may help somewhat. I'm happy using my knees for bracing with foam padding added to those spots. The stock Recaro seats hold me in place well. I feel when the car is starting to oversteer. SC3 tire squeal is normal (more on some tracks/surfaces than others) when driving the car hard on track without oversteering so it isn't a good indicator in my experience.

[juice3]

Pdr of that ? Looks like an input issue to me.

Get harnesses


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