Fuel System out of room - E85 and boost

Drsagacity · 10-28-2018, 06:16 PM

I swapped pulleys to the 70mm pulley on the Magnuson. I saw 14psi and then it did drop off at the end, so I probably need a smaller belt (I tried running the same belt as I used on the 75mm pulley).

Just as I expected, running pump e85 - which is really e70, the in-tank and HPFP were just fine, but I ran out of injector pulse width. I saw it spike to 6.8ms on the run (we have to stay below 7). I only ran up to about 5800rpm's so I could see the logs before going any further.

The logs have been sent to Ted so he can take a look. I anticipate the next steps to be:

a. drop the %e to say 50% and see if that gives enough headroom.
b. Switch to MS109 and use the 70mm as a track pulley
c. Add bigger injectors to give the room.

This is an important discovery because I am fully expecting that both the LT4 in tank pump + the voltage booster along with the HPFP can run into the 800+whp range with e85 with absolutely no problem, but the injectors simply top out before.

Fuel pressure hung in at 70psi and the fuel rail pressure was in the 2800psi...the injector pulse width peaked in the 6.8ms range...so I stopped.

If you are going for high HP configuration on the street, it looks like the mix of 93+Alky provides a higher threshold than e85 because e simply requires too much fuel and our direct injection runs out of time.

Since we found the limit of the fuel system, I think I am likely to get a tune on race fuel so I will have the 800whp+setup...but on the street, I anticipate dialing it back.

I have already tested (through the a8):
8psi - 700whp
10psi - 730whp
12psi - 760whp
14psi - in progress

When it warms up and I have new tires, I will get time to test each setup and figure out which is the sweet spot on the street and then I will get to the track and play around too.

For now, I am about done with the performance mods since we are running out of weather to get things completed. I am moving to my winter project and I have a new chin splitter and hood on the way.

Any ideas on what should be next, or if you have ideas on additional tests I might want to run...chime in.

oldman · 10-28-2018, 06:32 PM

Great info.

Joshinator99 · 10-28-2018, 09:06 PM

Just to be clear, are you running LT1 or LT4 injectors? I see you mention the LT4 HPFP and in tank pump, but not clear on your injectors.

Drsagacity · 10-28-2018, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Just to be clear, are you running LT1 or LT4 injectors? I see you mention the LT4 HPFP and in tank pump, but not clear on your injectors.

LT4 in-tank pump + JMS voltage booster, LT4 HPFP, LT4 injectors + Cam that has larger fuel lobe.

The injectors are definitely good into the mid-800's/low 900's with different fuel. . .but e85 requires 25% more fuel so the injectors simply don't have enough time to inject the volume required.

I anticipate running into the 800's on race fuel...or could do it with 93+Alky...but, I am not interested in the Alky injection if I can avoid it.

Joshinator99 · 10-28-2018, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drsagacity

LT4 in-tank pump + JMS voltage booster, LT4 HPFP, LT4 injectors + Cam that has larger fuel lobe.

The injectors are definitely good into the mid-800's/low 900's with different fuel. . .but e85 requires 25% more fuel so the injectors simply don't have enough time to inject the volume required.

I anticipate running into the 800's on race fuel...or could do it with 93+Alky...but, I am not interested in the Alky injection if I can avoid it.

Ok, thought so but figured if I was wondering then others probably were too.

I’d probably just back down to E30 or so. Keep much of the benefits of E but be able to make more power on that fuel system.

Drsagacity · 10-28-2018, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Ok, thought so but figured if I was wondering then others probably were too.

I’d probably just back down to E30 or so. Keep much of the benefits of E but be able to make more power on that fuel system.

When you reduce e, you also reduce the timing you can run. Figure e85 is about 105 octane. So, there will be diminishing returns at my power level. I would think anything below 50% and I will see the same power on less boost and more e.

L78toLT1 · 10-29-2018, 08:03 AM

Hey Drsag, have you and Ted determined if your fuel system has enough headroom to run full e85 at 8-9 psi (85mm pulley)? I'm going to start out with the 85mm pulley for my street setup and would like to have the ability to pull up to any e85 pump and fill 'er up without having to monitor the ethanol content i.e. have enough margin to be ok in the unlikely event that I get a tank of 85%e

MP3BOOSTED · 10-29-2018, 08:07 AM

You think the ported LT4 injectors would solve your problem if staying on e85? or would you rather stick to 93 octane and call it a day if driving the car on the street semi daily?!

KingLT1 · 10-29-2018, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L78toLT1

Hey Drsag, have you and Ted determined if your fuel system has enough headroom to run full e85 at 8-9 psi (85mm pulley)? I'm going to start out with the 85mm pulley for my street setup and would like to have the ability to pull up to any e85 pump and fill 'er up without having to monitor the ethanol content i.e. have enough margin to be ok in the unlikely event that I get a tank of 85%e

Good chance you will never see full 85% ethanol at the pump. It normally ranges from 65-80% unless you buy the high dollar C85 out of a Barrell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MP3BOOSTED

You think the ported LT4 injectors would solve your problem if staying on e85? or would you rather stick to 93 octane and call it a day if driving the car on the street semi daily?!

93 octane will not work at this power level without meth. He will also lose power.

He would be better served to lower the boost and keep running E85 for the street. Switch to race gas with a different tune for track mode.

MP3BOOSTED · 10-29-2018, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Good chance you will never see full 85% ethanol at the pump. It normally ranges from 65-80% unless you buy the high dollar C85 out of a Barrell.

93 octane will not work at this power level without meth. He will also lose power.

He would be better served to lower the boost and keep running E85 for the street. Switch to race gas with a different tune for track mode.

Got it, thank you, i ask because i am going boosted and want to verify what i'll need.

KingLT1 · 10-29-2018, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MP3BOOSTED

Got it, thank you, i ask because i am going boosted and want to verify what i'll need.

Me too...I have had the blower for several months. Just absorbing all the info I can and installing this winter.

Fyi The octane wall for 93 is right around 700 whp.

aka Reckless · 10-29-2018, 09:22 AM

I made 830 rwhp on E70 with LT4 injectors and pump, stock in-tank, and DSX external fuel setup.

MP3BOOSTED · 10-29-2018, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aka Reckless

I made 830 rwhp on E70 with LT4 injectors and pump, stock in-tank, and DSX external fuel setup.

auto or M6?

PRAY · 10-29-2018, 10:20 AM

I am not sure the injectors are the issue. What was the rail pressure and what does your injector timing look like?

In my experience the injectors are a reflection of rail pressure which is a reflection of the rest of the fuel system. I have not seen the injectors "go static" while I had rail pressure. The only time I see the injectors open up is when they detect a deficiency in the rest of the fuel system and try to open to compensate. I could be way out in left field though.

10-28-2018, 06:16 PM	#1
Drsagacity Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS Nightfall Gray vert Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Swansea, IL Posts: 1,219	Fuel System out of room - E85 and boost I swapped pulleys to the 70mm pulley on the Magnuson. I saw 14psi and then it did drop off at the end, so I probably need a smaller belt (I tried running the same belt as I used on the 75mm pulley). Just as I expected, running pump e85 - which is really e70, the in-tank and HPFP were just fine, but I ran out of injector pulse width. I saw it spike to 6.8ms on the run (we have to stay below 7). I only ran up to about 5800rpm's so I could see the logs before going any further. The logs have been sent to Ted so he can take a look. I anticipate the next steps to be: a. drop the %e to say 50% and see if that gives enough headroom. b. Switch to MS109 and use the 70mm as a track pulley c. Add bigger injectors to give the room. This is an important discovery because I am fully expecting that both the LT4 in tank pump + the voltage booster along with the HPFP can run into the 800+whp range with e85 with absolutely no problem, but the injectors simply top out before. Fuel pressure hung in at 70psi and the fuel rail pressure was in the 2800psi...the injector pulse width peaked in the 6.8ms range...so I stopped. If you are going for high HP configuration on the street, it looks like the mix of 93+Alky provides a higher threshold than e85 because e simply requires too much fuel and our direct injection runs out of time. Since we found the limit of the fuel system, I think I am likely to get a tune on race fuel so I will have the 800whp+setup...but on the street, I anticipate dialing it back. I have already tested (through the a8): 8psi - 700whp 10psi - 730whp 12psi - 760whp 14psi - in progress When it warms up and I have new tires, I will get time to test each setup and figure out which is the sweet spot on the street and then I will get to the track and play around too. For now, I am about done with the performance mods since we are running out of weather to get things completed. I am moving to my winter project and I have a new chin splitter and hood on the way. Any ideas on what should be next, or if you have ideas on additional tests I might want to run...chime in. __________________ 2017 Camaro 2SS vert - Nightfall Gray Magnuson Heartbeat SC - Tuned by JRE Racing 776whp/745wtq (12psi) 2018 Corvette Z06 vert- Black To be tuned by JRE Racing TBD performance Last edited by Drsagacity; 10-28-2018 at 06:40 PM.

10-28-2018, 06:32 PM	#2
oldman Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Hilo, HI Posts: 4,324	Great info. __________________ Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.

10-28-2018, 09:06 PM	#3
Joshinator99 Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS A8 Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Petersham MA Posts: 4,761	Just to be clear, are you running LT1 or LT4 injectors? I see you mention the LT4 HPFP and in tank pump, but not clear on your injectors. __________________ 2017 Chevy Camaro 2SS A8 Whipple 3.0, Mast Black Label heads, Fore triple in-tank pumps, 112mm TB, LPE +52% injectors, LPE BB HPFP, 15” conversion *1059 WHP/944 WTQ, 9.48@150*

10-29-2018, 08:03 AM	#7
L78toLT1 Drives: Hyper Blue 2016 2SS 6M Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: North Ga Posts: 1,787	Hey Drsag, have you and Ted determined if your fuel system has enough headroom to run full e85 at 8-9 psi (85mm pulley)? I'm going to start out with the 85mm pulley for my street setup and would like to have the ability to pull up to any e85 pump and fill 'er up without having to monitor the ethanol content i.e. have enough margin to be ok in the unlikely event that I get a tank of 85%e __________________ Baby Blue 2016 Hyper Blue 2SS/6m/MRC/NPP/Silver Rally stripes/ZL1 wheels & brakes/GForce DS and axles/ZLE Cradle Bushings/FE4 ARB front & rear/SEMA Grill/Rotofab dry/95mm TB/Magnuson 2300/Full LT4 fuel system/JMS boost-a-pump/E85 Sensor/Ported CID heads from LME/Cammotion PD cam/Thompson Motorsports forged shortblock/catted Kooks 1 7/8 headers /JRE remote tuned

10-29-2018, 08:07 AM	#8
MP3BOOSTED Drives: 2017 Camaro SS 1LE (F1A-94 FBO H/C) Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: San Antonio Texas Posts: 843	You think the ported LT4 injectors would solve your problem if staying on e85? or would you rather stick to 93 octane and call it a day if driving the car on the street semi daily?! __________________ Performance Mods: F1A-94, DSX Flex Fuel Kit, MSD Spark Plug Wires, KOOK 2" off road headers, MBRP Race catback exhaust, Pray Performance Custom Boost Cam, Rocker Arm Trunion Upgrade Kit, 7.850" Hardened Chromemoly Length Pushrods and Johnson Racing 2110R Lifters, TSP CNC'd Heads, Ported MSD intake manifold, 103mm Katech Throttle body, Forged Pistons/Rods, RPM Meth kit, DSX Aux Fuel system, AEM Failsafe and banks gauge, LT4 HPFP, LT4 injectors, BMR motor mounts, Hurst Short Throw, Manley SS exhaust valves Videos of my car? Check here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNi...Qy1OL4NVGlPogw

10-29-2018, 09:22 AM	#12
aka Reckless Drives: 2016 2SS Camaro Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Cumming, GA Posts: 541	I made 830 rwhp on E70 with LT4 injectors and pump, stock in-tank, and DSX external fuel setup.

10-29-2018, 10:20 AM	#14
PRAY Drives: 2016 2SS Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Sanford NC Posts: 2,766	I am not sure the injectors are the issue. What was the rail pressure and what does your injector timing look like? In my experience the injectors are a reflection of rail pressure which is a reflection of the rest of the fuel system. I have not seen the injectors "go static" while I had rail pressure. The only time I see the injectors open up is when they detect a deficiency in the rest of the fuel system and try to open to compensate. I could be way out in left field though.

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