[Drsagacity]

Just curiously anyone has experience mixing e85 and race fuel. With e85, the issue becomes the volume of fuel we have to push through the injectors. You can drop the amount of e to lesson the volume required. So, curious if anyone has advice on how you add race fuel?

Do you simply run down the tank as far as you can and then fill with race fuel? I am just trying to think through the practical way to swap from my regular fuel to race fuel.

What do you do for the track?

I was thinking either:

A. Drain the tank and refill
B. Mix, say 50/50 with race fuel and e85 (or some volume that allows the mix to be very consistent.

[KingLT1]

C. Buy the bigger injectors and keep running E85. What's another couple Grand when you have already spent 20+ k in mods.

[TJay74]

You can run around 20% of E85 (E20) and get the benefits of the knock suppression that E85 offers and still have enough headroom left in the fuel system to where you are not pushing the injectors to 100% duty cycle.

I am running E20 on my 1LE with a Procharger D1SC. I do have meth injection as well, but I have zero detonation showing on my logs as of now.

[ShizzySupra]

You are only at mid 600's on a manual. He is trying to push 800+whp through an auto. He will need the additional knock thresh hold. Also his is a Maggie which creates much more boost at lower RPM's and thus additional octane is always a benefit. You are also running meth which raises the octane as well.

Based on our testing E80ish is worth 3.5% power bump over 110 octane plus the additional cooling benefits.

Mixing is a pain but if you need to do it for fuel headroom go for it. I would mix it in separate containers then get the car low on whatever gas you were running. My friend mixes "jungle juice": E98 50% with c16 50% on his Fbody.

Originally Posted by TJay74

You can run around 20% of E85 (E20) and get the benefits of the knock suppression that E85 offers and still have enough headroom left in the fuel system to where you are not pushing the injectors to 100% duty cycle.

I am running E20 on my 1LE with a Procharger D1SC. I do have meth injection as well, but I have zero detonation showing on my logs as of now.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

You are only at mid 600's on a manual. He is trying to push 800+whp through an auto. He will need the additional knock thresh hold. Also his is a Maggie which creates much more boost at lower RPM's and thus additional octane is always a benefit. You are also running meth which raises the octane as well.

Based on our testing E80ish is worth 3.5% power bump over 110 octane plus the additional cooling benefits.

Mixing is a pain but if you need to do it for fuel headroom go for it. I would mix it in separate containers then get the car low on whatever gas you were running. My friend mixes "jungle juice": E98 50% with c16 50% on his Fbody.

Thanks Shizzy. So e85 provides more power potential that 110octane? I thought e85 was roughly the same as 105 octane?

@tjay,

Yeah. I am already at 760whp with no detonation just running pump e85 (it's between e70-80). I am asking because I am looking to bump to 800whp through the A8. I am going to bump to 14psi and then I need to make sure I have the fuel.

@King, which injectors? Are you talking about switching to port injection or actually running different injectors?

[laynlo15]

Race fuel will make more power then E85. You can run more timing, the fuel system requires less attention and on Mike Swansons Camaro (gen6mike) the most his would make on E was upper 850s and made low 890s on Vp 109. He also has the Lingenfelter Pump and injectors, you know how much that cost. I was there at Magnuson when it was on the dyno, its wicked. That was on a stock 2300 Heartbeat, except it did have a 103 TB on it.

[ShizzySupra]

All I know is that the Ignite Red we went from 850 on 110 leaded fuel to 880 (Red Ignite racing ethanol).

Ultimately there are additional benefits to ethanol but it all depends on available fuel flow. We are tapped out at 80% E content right now.

[laynlo15]

He's running lower E. Now Mike was running Meth on the 890's pull.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by laynlo15

He's running lower E. Now Mike was running Meth on the 890's pull.

Ok. Let’s assume we pick up 15whp for every pound of boost or for every degree of timing. What’s the best mix?

If we add alky, we probably add 2 degrees of timing on the car as it sits with 12 psi and we get 790whp.

If we add race fuel, probably about the same.

If that is the case, what if I simply add alky to allow advancing the timing at the track and safety for the street? I could have a tune for the track to advance timing and then we could dial it back for the street and just let the alky injection be a safety measure and I keep the car at 12psi on the 75mm pulley.

Another option...We have a 19gallon tank. I could just add 9.5gallons of race fuel to half tank of e85. We could tune within that mix and see where it is. Probably it would be about the same. Add a couple degrees of timing.

We also know that based on the converter lockup, it is screwing with the numbers on the dyno...and I am definitely seeing a little more power on the street vs the dyno (based on Hp tuner calculations).

What makes more sense.
1. Add alky and use it for track days to allow for advance timing and for additional safety for hot summers.
2. Add race fuel for track days.
3. Add a couple pounds of boost and race fuel for track use only.
4. Some mix of the options above

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Drsagacity

@King, which injectors? Are you talking about switching to port injection or actually running different injectors?

The LPE or FIC high flow DI injectors...

LPE was able to make 1500hp with a LT4 using just a DI fuel system which includes their DI injectors, Big bore pump, and cam with bigger fuel lobe. I believe when I talked to Tim at LPE he said it was good for over 900whp on pure E85 on a build they did. It's not a popular choice here because of the cost. your around 5k for those parts. I think some other options will come available in the future at a lower cost.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

The LPE or FIC high flow DI injectors...

LPE was able to make 1500hp with a LT4 using just a DI fuel system which includes their DI injectors, Big bore pump, and cam with bigger fuel lobe. I believe when I talked to Tim at LPE he said it was good for over 900whp on pure E85 on a build they did. It's not a popular choice here because of the cost. your around 5k for those parts. I think some other options will come available in the future at a lower cost.

Looks like prices have dropped. I suppose I could get these and sell my lT4 injectors. Figure they have about 800miles on them. Papers prices are now $3500-4000.

These flow 30-40% more than the Lt4 injectors. I like this option too. In the long run it might even be the cheapest because it will allow pump e85 with no problems and no need for additional race fuel.

[steelheadrob]

I have been looking at adding meth injection and/or race fuel for track days. I am currently running 9psi boost with 16 degrees of timing on 92oct pump gas.

Is there a rule of thumb on how much additional octane you need for each degree of timing? Also how much additional timing and boost you can run with 30/70 meth/water injection vs 50/50 vs 100 meth?

It looks laynlo15 & toohighpsi have done the most experimenting with combinations of race fuel and meth/water injections. Greg, Mike, or anyone else did you track levels of boost and timing that you were able to run for the different combintations?

Something like this:

pump gas: x psi boost, x degrees of timing
race gas: x psi boost, x degrees of timing
e85: x psi boost, x degrees of timing
30/70 meth: x psi boost, x degrees of timing
30/70 meth & race gas: x psi boost, x degrees of timing
50/50 meth: x psi boost, x degrees of timing
50/50 meth & race gas: x psi boost, x degrees of timing

[ShizzySupra]

There is no hard and fast rule for combination of octane and timing. Every car is different, setup, ambient weather, IAT’s etc. A cam profile can change dynamic compression which will result in different timing combinations as well. Heck a timing curve for a Maggie vs a Whipple is different as well. Its impossible to attempt to plot a linear curve that makes any sense.

For what its worth I run 100% meth but we dont lean on it for octane.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

There is no hard and fast rule for combination of octane and timing. Every car is different, setup, ambient weather, IAT’s etc. A cam profile can change dynamic compression which will result in different timing combinations as well. Heck a timing curve for a Maggie vs a Whipple is different as well. Its impossible to attempt to plot a linear curve that makes any sense.

For what its worth I run 100% meth but we dont lean on it for octane.

Shizzy, that makes sense, but if you were ball parking it, how much of a timing advance do you expect when comparing race fuel to e85?

As an example, I expect we would see 5-7degrees of timing with e85 when compared to 93 octane.

What about with methanol? Do you think spraying methanol on an e85 setup would allow a couple more degrees of timing?

Completely understand that it's just an educated guess. Bottom line is that if alky injection doesn't allow to advance timing when already using e85 then it's probably a non-starter and that means the best option is:

Use race fuel, not for timing advance, but because it provides headroom on the injectors allowing more boost. In that case, I can add 2 psi with e85 and see where I am. My guess is that with 2psi more, I will run out of injector. If that is the case, the easy way to solve that is to simply run race fuel. That should get me to 800whp on about 14psi.