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Old 11-29-2015, 05:54 AM   #393
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I'm probably out of the "buying a new Mustang game" for quite awhile, unless I see something that juat lights a fire in my netherregions.

These dudes that buy and sell rinse and repeat for every new too end model have a little more disposable income than I do.

It should be interesting to see how much of the GT350s hardware trickles down to GTs.

Magneride is the only eye popping thing that seems cost effective. Carbon wheels and a FPC don't seem GT likely.
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Old 11-29-2015, 09:33 PM   #394
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I don't believe we'll see the FPC in a GT. More than likely the Voodoo's displacement will happen (as well as some of, but not all of, the 5.2's lightweight internals). PTWA will make the displacement part easy. Actually with a little bit of a stroke (3.7mm) from 92.7 to 96.4 we could see 5.4L.

This could be done whilst retaining Coyote's CPC. A bump of .4L isn't huge by any means but would provide a nice bump in the engine's torque output.
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:07 PM   #395
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Have they released an engine price for the FPC 5.2?

I believe the 5.8 from my GT500 was high 20s. Whats a coyote retail at?
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:28 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Have they released an engine price for the FPC 5.2?

I believe the 5.8 from my GT500 was high 20s. Whats a coyote retail at?
I haven't seen any Voodoo crate pricing yet.
I'd ballpark it in the low to mid $20k range.

Coyote crates can be had from $7400-8995. From FordRacing.
A Trinity crate currently retails for $31,000 from Evolution Performance, I believe FordRacing has ceased their distribution.
And for comparison's sake
A Gen1 3.5EB is $9400 from FordRacing.
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Old 11-30-2015, 09:25 AM   #397
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From M6G by voodooo-
"Ford racing performance has a listing of the voodoo 5.2l bare block at a $3000.00 list cost. And the 5.0l coyote performance bare block at a $3250.00 list cost. What I find interesting is the head bolt size on the voodoo is 12mm vs 11mm for the coyote performance block. "
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Old 11-30-2015, 10:16 AM   #398
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Stock vs stock, price no object, the cars are equivalent and it comes down to a personal choice of styling. The 1 second difference in the track can easily be explained by driver mod. For those that didn't watch the entire video, the Z/28 walked away leading the majority of the video, the only reason the 350 won was the "drag race at the end". The 2015 pro racing season and Stevenson motorsports already proved the Z/28 is the best track car available. Once price becomes a factor, Ford fails miserably at $40k+ more and once you take a step back and realize this is a 6th gen vs. 5th gen.....just...no words. I have no doubt GM will continue to dominate for several years to come.
whatever you are smoking care to pass it around?
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 11-30-2015, 10:36 AM   #399
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whatever you are smoking care to pass it around?
Sure, perhaps you can elaborate or you just here to throw meaningless flames?

Edit: Actually, will go one step farther - good luck finding anyone who paid less than $90k for their GT350R.

Last edited by Snoman; 11-30-2015 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:46 AM   #400
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Sure, perhaps you can elaborate or you just here to throw meaningless flames?

Edit: Actually, will go one step farther - good luck finding anyone who paid less than $90k for their GT350R.
Yeah finding an R at MSRP will be very tough this year. I do remember that there was also very high markups on the Z when it was first released as well. So let's not bring in rebates or mark ups right now.

Sure let's break it down shall we.

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Originally Posted by Snoman View Post
Stock vs stock, price no object, the cars are equivalent and it comes down to a personal choice of styling.

Yes, if you just look strictly at MSRP these cars are pretty equivalent. Except that You can get creature comforts in the 350R that you can not get in the Z/28 for 10K less or if you just wanted the 5.2 you can get a base 350 or track pack 350 or a tech pack 350. For those that just wanted a LS7 Camaro, you had to go full blown Z/28.


The 1 second difference in the track can easily be explained by driver mod.

The cars were driven by the same driver same day. Not to mention that Randy is a pretty damn good driver. Yeah I am sure the average joe driving both cars might be able to get one faster than the other, but this test had a professional driver drive both cars. Can't really say a different driver here would make the Z faster.


For those that didn't watch the entire video, the Z/28 walked away leading the majority of the video,

Actually if you watch the video, you will see the R is ahead most of the way. Carried more speed into the turns, and accelerated out of the corners faster(which was a point that Randy made the the R put the power down better) The Z was right there slightly, and on the last turn the R really pulled ahead. Ask some of these guys that have actually raced on a road course. Over a second on a road course is huge.

the only reason the 350 won was the "drag race at the end".

Again false, while I am sure it had a little bit of influence, MT knows that both of these cars are track cars, but since its Mustang and Camaro they had to drag race. And also that entire segment of the video, looks to me as if it was done to be comedic, with the mullet hair on the Camaro driver

The 2015 pro racing season and Stevenson motorsports already proved the Z/28 is the best track car available. Once price becomes a factor, Ford fails miserably at $40k+ more and once you take a step back and realize this is a 6th gen vs. 5th gen.....just...no words. I have no doubt GM will continue to dominate for several years to come.

Who cares about pro racing season? Unless they are taking the cars out of the show room and racing them as is I don't care.

Yes this old gen vs new gen that debate has been beat to death. And as impressive as the 6th Gen SS is, I have no doubts that GM will build something to one up the 350R and do it with ease.
Responses in red.

And I am not trying to take anything away from the Z/28 The performance it offers is unbelievable, especially on the platform they made it on. Just think you need to give credit where credit where credit is due is all. The way your post came off is that the 350R is a total failure
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(

Last edited by shaffe; 11-30-2015 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:15 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by Snoman View Post
Stock vs stock, price no object, the cars are equivalent and it comes down to a personal choice of styling. The 1 second difference in the track can easily be explained by driver mod. For those that didn't watch the entire video, the Z/28 walked away leading the majority of the video, the only reason the 350 won was the "drag race at the end". The 2015 pro racing season and Stevenson motorsports already proved the Z/28 is the best track car available. Once price becomes a factor, Ford fails miserably at $40k+ more and once you take a step back and realize this is a 6th gen vs. 5th gen.....just...no words. I have no doubt GM will continue to dominate for several years to come.
40k+ more? You're comparing Z/28 selling for way below MSRP to GT350R selling for way above MSRP? That's called supply and demand. The MSRP for the GT350R is almost $10,000 less than the MSRP of the Z/28. If the 350R is selling for $40k more then that is clearly not Ford, "fail[ing] miserably"
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:00 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
Yeah finding an R at MSRP will be very tough this year. I do remember that there was also very high markups on the Z when it was first released as well. So let's not bring in rebates or mark ups right now.

Sure let's break it down shall we.

Responses in red.
Can't disagree with your responses. The 350R is faster around that particular track. I would like to see how it compares around other tracks too. Remember our GT500 vs ZL1 track discussion? Take one track - might not tell the whole story. 10 straight laps around VIR grand west would suffice

I will simply point out: if you're going to buy an off the shelf track car today, the Z/28 is by far the best deal. MSRP means nothing unless that's what people actually pay...which it isn't. The Z/28's can be had for less than $60k right now. Nothing Ford makes can beat that performance value. An R will be impossible to find and a regular 350 will cost as much and be slower than the Z (although you could argue be much more livable).

I just can't see paying Z06 money for a 2-seater 350R. You could make an argument that it is the better drivers car (highly subjective) but it's still slower in every measurable way.

Once 350R production catches up to demand and prices drop down to MSRP levels, it will be the performance value leader...unless of course the 6th gen track Camaro is available by then.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:12 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
Yeah finding an R at MSRP will be very tough this year. I do remember that there was also very high markups on the Z when it was first released as well. So let's not bring in rebates or mark ups right now.

Sure let's break it down shall we.

Responses in red.



Yes, if you just look strictly at MSRP these cars are pretty equivalent. Except that You can get creature comforts in the 350R that you can not get in the Z/28 for 10K less or if you just wanted the 5.2 you can get a base 350 or track pack 350 or a tech pack 350. For those that just wanted a LS7 Camaro, you had to go full blown Z/28.

Agreed (prior post) - GM ergonomics suck balls and if we begin comparing engine reliability, Ford wins over the questionable LS7 issues.


The cars were driven by the same driver same day. Not to mention that Randy is a pretty damn good driver. Yeah I am sure the average joe driving both cars might be able to get one faster than the other, but this test had a professional driver drive both cars. Can't really say a different driver here would make the Z faster.

Too close to call either way, the Z has superior brakes and the R has wider tires. Hence the driver mod comment and I've seen a Z driven harder than this video. We are going to see dozens more of these from all sides of the journalism field and I expect varying results going both ways.

For those that didn't watch the entire video, the Z/28 walked away leading the majority of the video,

Actually if you watch the video, you will see the R is ahead most of the way. Carried more speed into the turns, and accelerated out of the corners faster(which was a point that Randy made the the R put the power down better) The Z was right there slightly, and on the last turn the R really pulled ahead. Ask some of these guys that have actually raced on a road course. Over a second on a road course is huge.

the only reason the 350 won was the "drag race at the end".

Again false, while I am sure it had a little bit of influence, MT knows that both of these cars are track cars, but since its Mustang and Camaro they had to drag race. And also that entire segment of the video, looks to me as if it was done to be comedic, with the mullet hair on the Camaro driver

My statement was based on the overall review at 22:00, "I'm this close to crowning a victor, but these are muscle cars and the only way Ford is winning overall is if it wins the drag race...". Misquoted for sure.


The 2015 pro racing season and Stevenson motorsports already proved the Z/28 is the best track car available. Once price becomes a factor, Ford fails miserably at $40k+ more and once you take a step back and realize this is a 6th gen vs. 5th gen.....just...no words. I have no doubt GM will continue to dominate for several years to come.

Who cares about pro racing season? Unless they are taking the cars out of the show room and racing them as is I don't care.

Yes this old gen vs new gen that debate has been beat to death. And as impressive as the 6th Gen SS is, I have no doubts that GM will build something to one up the 350R and do it with ease.


The pro racing circuit has a tendency to equalize things so we see a more realistic comparison between different manufacturers. Both motors were sandbagged/chocked off and the Z lost its brakes, I am not up to par with what else was done to the R. At the end of the season between the 5 cars, I believe it was Z, Z, R, Z, R ? I could look it up and there are a ton of valid arguments over 1/2 second here, blew some tire there but from a high level this simply means the cars are basically twins with different creature comforts.


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40k+ more? You're comparing Z/28 selling for way below MSRP to GT350R selling for way above MSRP? That's called supply and demand. The MSRP for the GT350R is almost $10,000 less than the MSRP of the Z/28. If the 350R is selling for $40k more then that is clearly not Ford, "fail[ing] miserably"
Yea, not quite sure what world you live in but real dollars and cost of items are important to most people that breathe air. In Ford's defense (and yours), at the manufacture level the GT350R is the clear winner on paper coming in $10k below MSRP, except its not wearing $25k in shoes and socks.

Unfortunately, the majority of us common folk are forced to pay street/market value. I would spend $35-40k in savings elsewhere and drive a Z all day long and twice on Sundays. GM proved the $75k price point for a mass produced "Camaro" was unsustainable and only time will prove if Ford can sustain it or if their dealers will start eating the same losses.

Two 100% identical televisions except for the color of the remote. You choose to pay $9,000 for the white one and I'll pay $6,000 for the green one? Sounds logical to me, but sell me the white one for $5k if it's available.
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:43 PM   #404
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Yea, not quite sure what world you live in but real dollars and cost of items are important to most people that breathe air. In Ford's defense (and yours), at the manufacture level the GT350R is the clear winner on paper coming in $10k below MSRP, except its not wearing $25k in shoes and socks.

Unfortunately, the majority of us common folk are forced to pay street/market value. I would spend $35-40k in savings elsewhere and drive a Z all day long and twice on Sundays. GM proved the $75k price point for a mass produced "Camaro" was unsustainable and only time will prove if Ford can sustain it or if their dealers will start eating the same losses.

Two 100% identical televisions except for the color of the remote. You choose to pay $9,000 for the white one and I'll pay $6,000 for the green one? Sounds logical to me, but sell me the white one for $5k if it's available.
A car consistently selling over MSRP is a result of high demand. That is, in fact, a success for the manufacturer and a highly desirable vehicle. It's not a "fail" for Ford if the competition is selling for 20+% discounts, probably below cost.

Those "TVs" aren't identical if one is faster on track, faster in a drag race, has a nicer interior, and drives better on the street. You can say one second is insignificant, that just tells me you don't spend much time on the track. The 350R was clearly faster on track in that scenario. Watch the section speeds, it is consistently peaking in straights 1-3mph faster and cornering 1-2mph faster.

One can make the "driver mod" claim, but it seems like quite a reach when we're talking about Randy Pobst, particularly when he has significantly more seat time in the Z/28 than the 350R.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with shoes and socks. Are you talking about the brakes? The 350R has one-piece carbon fiber wheels with Sport Cup 2s, so it's wearing quite expensive shoes indeed.
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Old 11-30-2015, 07:47 PM   #405
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A car consistently selling over MSRP is a result of high demand. That is, in fact, a success for the manufacturer and a highly desirable vehicle. It's not a "fail" for Ford if the competition is selling for 20+% discounts, probably below cost.

Those "TVs" aren't identical if one is faster on track, faster in a drag race, has a nicer interior, and drives better on the street. You can say one second is insignificant, that just tells me you don't spend much time on the track. The 350R was clearly faster on track in that scenario. Watch the section speeds, it is consistently peaking in straights 1-3mph faster and cornering 1-2mph faster.

One can make the "driver mod" claim, but it seems like quite a reach when we're talking about Randy Pobst, particularly when he has significantly more seat time in the Z/28 than the 350R.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with shoes and socks. Are you talking about the brakes? The 350R has one-piece carbon fiber wheels with Sport Cup 2s, so it's wearing quite expensive shoes indeed.
I never once mentioned that a 1 second track lap differential was insignificant and a few of you are are missing my point completely. If you race professionally that's awesome, go get an R and get beaten by a Z. If you think otherwise, that's cool and I respect that but I'm not going to debate a 10mm hypothetical difference in tires or the length of some nano-tube intake switch because the light in the glove box is green. That and I don't have the technical speak at that level (actually, was referring to the Z's brake system). I'm simply going to lean on the proven professional circuits I've seen the two compete the last year. If you think Stevenson and others cheated or the R's simply couldn't handle the race season, good luck with that.

If you need to blow $30k+ to win an amateur track event somewhere maybe, then you simply have more cash than the rest of us. Good luck with that one also.
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:04 AM   #406
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Can't disagree with your responses. The 350R is faster around that particular track. I would like to see how it compares around other tracks too. Remember our GT500 vs ZL1 track discussion? Take one track - might not tell the whole story. 10 straight laps around VIR grand west would suffice

I will simply point out: if you're going to buy an off the shelf track car today, the Z/28 is by far the best deal. MSRP means nothing unless that's what people actually pay...which it isn't. The Z/28's can be had for less than $60k right now. Nothing Ford makes can beat that performance value. An R will be impossible to find and a regular 350 will cost as much and be slower than the Z (although you could argue be much more livable).

I just can't see paying Z06 money for a 2-seater 350R. You could make an argument that it is the better drivers car (highly subjective) but it's still slower in every measurable way.

Once 350R production catches up to demand and prices drop down to MSRP levels, it will be the performance value leader...unless of course the 6th gen track Camaro is available by then.
Agreed. However since this is the only same day same driver comparison right now, it is all we have to go by.

And yes I can not argue if you are buying something today the Z/28 is in a incredible value.

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Yes, if you just look strictly at MSRP these cars are pretty equivalent. Except that You can get creature comforts in the 350R that you can not get in the Z/28 for 10K less or if you just wanted the 5.2 you can get a base 350 or track pack 350 or a tech pack 350. For those that just wanted a LS7 Camaro, you had to go full blown Z/28.

Agreed (prior post) - GM ergonomics suck balls and if we begin comparing engine reliability, Ford wins over the questionable LS7 issues.


The cars were driven by the same driver same day. Not to mention that Randy is a pretty damn good driver. Yeah I am sure the average joe driving both cars might be able to get one faster than the other, but this test had a professional driver drive both cars. Can't really say a different driver here would make the Z faster.

Too close to call either way, the Z has superior brakes and the R has wider tires. Hence the driver mod comment and I've seen a Z driven harder than this video. We are going to see dozens more of these from all sides of the journalism field and I expect varying results going both ways.

For those that didn't watch the entire video, the Z/28 walked away leading the majority of the video,

Actually if you watch the video, you will see the R is ahead most of the way. Carried more speed into the turns, and accelerated out of the corners faster(which was a point that Randy made the the R put the power down better) The Z was right there slightly, and on the last turn the R really pulled ahead. Ask some of these guys that have actually raced on a road course. Over a second on a road course is huge.

the only reason the 350 won was the "drag race at the end".

Again false, while I am sure it had a little bit of influence, MT knows that both of these cars are track cars, but since its Mustang and Camaro they had to drag race. And also that entire segment of the video, looks to me as if it was done to be comedic, with the mullet hair on the Camaro driver

My statement was based on the overall review at 22:00, "I'm this close to crowning a victor, but these are muscle cars and the only way Ford is winning overall is if it wins the drag race...". Misquoted for sure.


The 2015 pro racing season and Stevenson motorsports already proved the Z/28 is the best track car available. Once price becomes a factor, Ford fails miserably at $40k+ more and once you take a step back and realize this is a 6th gen vs. 5th gen.....just...no words. I have no doubt GM will continue to dominate for several years to come.

Who cares about pro racing season? Unless they are taking the cars out of the show room and racing them as is I don't care.

Yes this old gen vs new gen that debate has been beat to death. And as impressive as the 6th Gen SS is, I have no doubts that GM will build something to one up the 350R and do it with ease.


The pro racing circuit has a tendency to equalize things so we see a more realistic comparison between different manufacturers. Both motors were sandbagged/chocked off and the Z lost its brakes, I am not up to par with what else was done to the R. At the end of the season between the 5 cars, I believe it was Z, Z, R, Z, R ? I could look it up and there are a ton of valid arguments over 1/2 second here, blew some tire there but from a high level this simply means the cars are basically twins with different creature comforts.



:cheers: The only thing I will counter you counter points, is you stated the pro racing teams, the cars are sandbagged/choked off, the Z lost it's brakes. That pretty much makes them not the same vehicle anymore if you ask me.
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it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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