[Jamesg89]

I think you should have proof that Vengeance provided a bad part before this was ever posted online. You should never accuse someone of anything based on assumptions. If the engine hasn't even been disassembled how can you make this post bashing them for their parts? Shop doesn't check clearances but now the cam must have been bad because the motor failed...if your the only reported failure ever I would be very hesitant to blame anyone besides the installer until I seen a defective part in front of me.

That being said, I would be pretty upset too. I would want someone to offer me some sort of help too, especially if it was their shitty install or it was a bad part either one. Hell my bone stock car blew the motor and I was pissed...I get it. But before any blame is assigned I would have the motor disassembled by a third party. If that install shop offers no help why give them anymore money? Take it to a known reputable shop and let them look into it. Then and only then assign blame.

[RonatVengeance]

Originally Posted by oldman

Agree on the free revv, I don't think it is possible to 100% be certainty that the engine did not blow on a 3rd to 2nd miss shift. aka mechanical over rev. Clearly the dealer can pull the max RPM code from the ecu when a check engine light is set (based on all the bent push rod LS2 suits / claims). IMO you would need that for any suit.


Your suit would be based on this:"Shop claims they didn't do a PTV clearance check because it's a common LT1 H/C package "

Vengeance has already said this package needs to be fully blue printed. case closed, installer error.

IMO because this dealer sells and installs Vengeance products, Vengeance does have a vested interest in this. The should at least verify with their own dealer, what was said and done. IMO of course. This is NOT a GM perf cam, it is a HUGE max effort street cam, clearly to my mind there has to some caution with this. I can give an example the BTR baby street / blower cam says "gentle on the valvetrain". I take that as probably don't need chain, push rods or trunnion upgrades, probably don't need to change the mild performance valve springs every 20k, probably don't need the killer valve springs, don't need better than LT7 lifters, will work with standard cam restrictor... That's what I take from it. The stage III should say something like only a fully blueprinted cam install with proper components aka nothing stock.

To clarify this camshaft was purchased by the OP off of our online store. The installation shop is not a dealer for Vengeance Racing. We have no clue who they are and if they were a dealer, they no longer would be because no matter what is found now, it could have been found DURING the installation process and avoided the situation the customer is now in.

It has become clear to me that the OP is the type to blame everyone around him and take no ownership for his own actions. I have yet to receive a phone call to discuss anything yet every time I sit down at my desk there is a new post with slanderous comments being made with no factual information.

At the end of the day the shop chosen by the OP did not

Check piston to valve
Check lifter preload
Check Install Height on the spring kit

What else was not checked? Is the phaser lock out kit installed properly?
Are the VVT tables modified to further limit cam travel?
Were rockers properly torqued? The list goes on...….

Anyone who knows me or knows Vengeance knows I will bend over backward to help someone, but when your approach is to run to the internet pointing fingers even while facts are being shared then I have zero interest in offering anymore help than I already have.

I will go ahead and say that at this point I have zero faith in the "upcoming measurements" based on the fact the OP has continually pointed fingers even though he has been provided with FACTS that could have helped him around this entire situation.

He chose his install shop.
He chose to illegally street race
He missed the gear... I don't care if it was 10 miles or 100,000 miles after install....
He blames everyone but himself and THAT is the biggest problem of all.

[RonatVengeance]

Originally Posted by Jamesg89

I think you should have proof that Vengeance provided a bad part before this was ever posted online. You should never accuse someone of anything based on assumptions. If the engine hasn't even been disassembled how can you make this post bashing them for their parts? Shop doesn't check clearances but now the cam must have been bad because the motor failed...if your the only reported failure ever I would be very hesitant to blame anyone besides the installer until I seen a defective part in front of me.

That being said, I would be pretty upset too. I would want someone to offer me some sort of help too, especially if it was their shitty install or it was a bad part either one. Hell my bone stock car blew the motor and I was pissed...I get it. But before any blame is assigned I would have the motor disassembled by a third party. If that install shop offers no help why give them anymore money? Take it to a known reputable shop and let them look into it. Then and only then assign blame.

We do not grind camshafts. All of our camshafts are manufactured by Cam Motion. As indicated earlier in this thread we have over 170 Stage III LT camshafts on the streets with guess what... ZERO failures. IF the camshaft was cut wrong that is the sole reason you DEGREE a camshaft during installation to determine advertised specs match actual specs. This step was not considered to be important apparently.

[S2K+1LE]

Originally Posted by DatBrotato

You're basically saying the shop will always be to blame for out of tolerance components, and that the manufacturer will only be responsible in the case of a catastrophic parts failure, and even then it might not be provable because of all the variables involved. So most of the time they get off the hook.

.

No, no one is saying that at all. The manufacturer is responsible for defects in the materials or workmanship. The shop should have done their due diligence and checked all tolerances, basically they skipped multiple steps where anything out of tolerance WOULD have been found IF there was ever an issue.

So yeah, it's pretty clearly their fault for not properly checking and verifying the installation before giving the customer's car back. If there were any issues with the cam, they SHOULD have caught that during the install and worked with Vengance on a replacement.

[Goldfish]

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

We do not grind camshafts. All of our camshafts are manufactured by Cam Motion. As indicated earlier in this thread we have over 170 Stage III LT camshafts on the streets with guess what... ZERO failures. IF the camshaft was cut wrong that is the sole reason you DEGREE a camshaft during installation to determine advertised specs match actual specs. This step was not considered to be important apparently.

100% on board with all of your posts in this thread up until this one. IF the cam is out of spec and ground improperly, you're responsible for that part of this debacle. My money is not on this being the case, but IF it is, then you can't say "well, we may have not made it right, but you should have checked it for us" as a defense for that. I think it's pretty reasonable to expect a received part to match an ordered part.

[avalonandl]

I have to side with Vengence here, until you return the cam to them with proof of an "out of spec" part.

First you clearly overevved the engine,,, that enough is enough in itself to grenade the engine.
Second - Sloppy install- no PTV clearance, cam not degreed... VERY BASIC INSTALL PROCEDURES SKIPPED. ANY SPEED SHOP should know how to do this, and insist on this.

Sorry DAT, not buying into this... expensive lesson

[DatBrotato]

Originally Posted by avalonandl

I have to side with Vengence here, until you return the cam to them with proof of an "out of spec" part.

First you clearly overevved the engine,,, that enough is enough in itself to grenade the engine.
Second - Sloppy install- no PTV clearance, cam not degreed... VERY BASIC INSTALL PROCEDURES SKIPPED. ANY SPEED SHOP should know how to do this, and insist on this.

Sorry DAT, not buying into this... expensive lesson

lol. There was no mechanical over-revv. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't know what that looks like.
I was in the car, I know what happened.
I'm having a gm tech come out to the car to try and pull the info off the blackbox/ecu.

[DFW1LE]

My view is that problems like this should never be litigated on the internet. Sure, describing an engine malfunction and what might have caused it seems reasonable, but that can be done without dragging the parts supplier or shop into the discussion. There has been more than enough piling on and finger pointing and I doubt anyone feels good about this at this point. Dat, I really suggest taking this discussion off line, and try to work with both companies to flush out what the cause was and go from there if any reparations are warranted.

[MP3BOOSTED]

"improper cam install/Over-revv carnage" ....... enough said

[Epx998]

[MP3BOOSTED]

Originally Posted by Epx998

[glenB]

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

We do not grind camshafts. All of our camshafts are manufactured by Cam Motion. As indicated earlier in this thread we have over 170 Stage III LT camshafts on the streets with guess what... ZERO failures. IF the camshaft was cut wrong that is the sole reason you DEGREE a camshaft during installation to determine advertised specs match actual specs. This step was not considered to be important apparently.

Being Cam Motion cam, they use a Cam Doctor or similar to verify the cam after the grind, hence the cam sheet will reveal any discrepancy. Further absolving VR.

Even Nascar engines fail during a mechanical over-rev. Since them shop is willing to assist in the repair I'd stop while you're ahead.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

To clarify this camshaft was purchased by the OP off of our online store. The installation shop is not a dealer for Vengeance Racing. We have no clue who they are and if they were a dealer, they no longer would be because no matter what is found now, it could have been found DURING the installation process and avoided the situation the customer is now in.

I stand corrected. I do think you should have a note on the cam card that says something to the effect of this is a max effort cam, only a fully blueprinted install... yada yada. Would people listen? Maybe... it is called customer service / support.

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

At the end of the day the shop chosen by the OP did not

Check piston to valve
Check lifter preload
Check Install Height on the spring kit

What else was not checked? Is the phaser lock out kit installed properly?
Are the VVT tables modified to further limit cam travel?
Were rockers properly torqued? The list goes on...….

all included in the fully blueprinted cam install. Add it to the cam card.

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

Anyone who knows me or knows Vengeance knows I will bend over backward to help someone, but when your approach is to run to the internet pointing fingers even while facts are being shared then I have zero interest in offering anymore help than I already have.

I will go ahead and say that at this point I have zero faith in the "upcoming measurements" based on the fact the OP has continually pointed fingers even though he has been provided with FACTS that could have helped him around this entire situation.

He should ship the cam to you.... That said
1) performance stuff blows up hence GM builds a Z/28 or ZL1 for people that need / want a warranty.
2) still not obvious this was or was not a mechanical over-rev
3) shop did not check anything (most probable)… by the OP said the shop was going to cover most of the cost...


My soap box says I would have gone with step 3 and figured an additional 2k out of the pocket is the price to play. I would never mod my car unless

a) I had another DD

b) 5 to 10K sitting around depending on the mods...not including the cost of the mods.. For me on a fully heads, cam, blower build I went in with 10K of just in case money... 7K of which still sits in my checking account..... just in case. I hit retirement and then double dip... I'm hoping to allocate it to a forged short block... but the Oldlady is already talking about a fire pit in my just planted all grass back yard. Point is it should be ready cash or don't even play.. buy a stock ZL1.


I have had to fish 2k to 5k maybe not on a yearly basis but say every other year just because stuff happens. Last year my son on a road race snapped a chilled core cam on my sleeved 2.1 Type R it broke in several places, I got off cheap, new cams and kit, gaskets, all new valves and machine work. luck for us the pistons and head were still usable. The whole $10,000 engine could easily have been scratched. Never snapped a chilled core cam before, these were $2000 June Japan cams.. back to cheap slightly milder Skunk2 cams. Even now I'm not 100% sure why the cams snapped after like 15K miles and 2 years of abuse... maybe I was even "lucky" they lasted this long. Not like anybody is into this type of engine anymore.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by DatBrotato

I'm having a gm tech come out to the car to try and pull the info off the blackbox/ecu.

That would be interesting. Would back up the no mechanical over-rev.

Ship cam to Vengeance to spec. Get a quote / note install doc whatever that says something about cam must be professionally installed.


Cut and pasted the notes. Win court case.


If the shop is willing to work with you and you get out of your reactive mind, there is no warranty on performance parts and usage in general.

I would ask the original shop to pay for the machine work, new head, pistons? valves. Have them ship the block and parts to a shop that you pick. YOU pay that new shop for an install. This new shop should also be the ones that take apart your engine and ship the broken out of spec parts back to the original shop. Figure you are out your car for 3 months and 5K minimum. So you will get about $1500 to $2K from the original shop all told, don't deal with them.

If you want no head aches, find new shop, pay them to redo $6500 to 7K or so. You might need to compromise, depending on your wallet you may just end up with a stock engine for the time being.

As stated a many post ago, my bro races and DD a Boxster, these engines run 20 to 30K + a working engine for a performance rebuild and there is NO warranty.

"All “Track-Prepped Hi-Performance” Stage II, Stage III, Turbocharged and Competition engines are sold without warranty; express or implied."

http://flat6innovations.com/warranty/