[jimrhodes]

q

[USAFS197]

I'm in the camp where I think the advertisements aren't really going to help the Camaro. As mentioned already by others, the Dodge muscle cars (Challenger and Charger) competing against the Ford and Chevy pony cars (Mustang and Camaro) is a completely different segment that is constantly intermingled but yet people want them marketed the same way.

The Mustang requires absolutely no commercials to be appealing--period. Ford may make a few small videos here and there to showcase the car but, not an aggressive advertisement campaign like Dodge has. Chevrolet just doesn't have media advertisement for their performance vehicles like that outside of a few pictures. Instead they rely on good old fashioned word of mouth to drive their vehicles and I think that's perfectly fine, if I'm being honest. Camaros and Corvettes are niche vehicles and not as versatile as the much larger Dodge muscle cars or the jack-of-all-trades Mustang. It's important for Dodge to showcase their vehicles as being large and in charge. It'll broaden the appeal of their lineup for folks who may not exactly be into muscle cars in general but would like a spacious, comfortable vehicle that can carry more than one other adult with them but can also get out of it's own way if need be.

I think the fundamental problem is that folks think these vehicles all belong to the same market segment and it's been happening for the longest time. I've never owned a muscle car in my life but I've owned quite a few pony cars. I've never thought about cross shopping into that realm until recently when the wifey expressed interest in getting a Charger Hellcat. It certainly isn't about the advertisements, it's literally because of the aforementioned items I brought up. It's spacious, she can carry the family in it and it's quick-ish.

And on to the C8 issue, I'm utterly proud of GM for ditching the manual transmission in the C8, much the same as they made a concerted effort to ditch chrome everywhere. This car is a symbol of transition from the old methods to the new methods. It's hard to try to bring out a cutting edge vehicle if you're holding on to old technology just to appeal to a severely small market segment who enjoys rowing gears and being less efficient. I'm sure if sales reflected the need for it, they would have revised their entire monocoque to enable the usage of a manual transmission while still giving it the rigidity they were looking for. But why bother? The DCT is worlds beyond both torque converter based automatics and manual transmission options. Don't like it? Don't buy it. There's plenty of C7 and older generations you can purchase if you want to cling to the past.

[CoolbreezeNJ]

Perhaps beating a dead horse. If the Camaro had one maybe 2" more of glass and a more usable trunk I believe it would sell more. The Mustang has only that much more glass and if you look closely it is only on the sides where your head is. It narrows down quite a bit past your head.

If I was to create a marketing campaign for the Camaro I would highlight it's handling capabilities. After all that is what GM spent the money on. Furthermore when people ask me about my car what I tell them is: People don't get the Camaro, they think of muscle but the real point is how well it handles.

You can go and find any number of YouTubers all the way up to CD and R&T which shows how bad the Camaro spanks either the Mustang and of course the Challenger in any and all levels except for the new GT500. To get the GT500 to beat a ZL1-1LE you are at $100K and at that point who cares?

I actually owned a 70 Cuda and a 71 Challenger back in the days and the new Challenger never really did it for me.

[ModernCamaroZ28Fan]

Camaro and Mustang don't do their ads the right way. Dodge flexs their cars while GM and Ford simply talk about features that most non-car (and even car people) care less about.

Another thing, the Challenger is simply more practical. Camaro and Mustang have their minor issues that turn potential customers off.

They're all great cars though.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

And on to the C8 issue, I'm utterly proud of GM for ditching the manual transmission in the C8, much the same as they made a concerted effort to ditch chrome everywhere. This car is a symbol of transition from the old methods to the new methods. It's hard to try to bring out a cutting edge vehicle if you're holding on to old technology just to appeal to a severely small market segment who enjoys rowing gears and being less efficient. I'm sure if sales reflected the need for it, they would have revised their entire monocoque to enable the usage of a manual transmission while still giving it the rigidity they were looking for. But why bother? The DCT is worlds beyond both torque converter based automatics and manual transmission options. Don't like it? Don't buy it. There's plenty of C7 and older generations you can purchase if you want to cling to the past.

35% of C7s were sold with a manual in an era when the manual take rate on cars in North America in general is about 5%. It was NOT an old method. Stop believing that crap. GM f'd up big time here

Why do people continue to completely miss the point on manuals? You own one right? Seriously, WTF????

[bigd1276]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

35% of C7s were sold with a manual in an era when the manual take rate on cars in North America in general is about 5%. It was NOT an old method. Stop believing that crap. GM f'd up big time here

Why do people continue to completely miss the point on manuals? You own one right? Seriously, WTF????

As much as we love and enjoy our MT Camaros, I think the fate of the manual transmission has already been sealed.

[NeverDie]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

35% of C7s were sold with a manual in an era when the manual take rate on cars in North America in general is about 5%. It was NOT an old method. Stop believing that crap. GM f'd up big time here

Why do people continue to completely miss the point on manuals? You own one right? Seriously, WTF????

26.55% of C7 were produced with a manual.

[L78toLT1]

Young family consisting of a car enthusiast dad, mom who appreciates cool looking cars and two rug rats goes car shopping. They shop Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger. What do 95% of folks in this demographic come home with? The same car I would buy at that stage of life and that ain't the Camaro. All mom would have to do is open the door on a Camaro and she'd be off to the Dodge or Ford dealer.
The Camaro is as much a niche vehicle as the Corvette. I don't believe gm could make a business case for a Dodge level ad campaign. It may sell a few cars, but the Charger/Challenger would still kill it in sales.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by L78toLT1

Young family consisting of a car enthusiast dad, mom who appreciates cool looking cars and two rug rats goes car shopping. They shop Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger. What do 95% of folks in this demographic come home with? The same car I would buy at that stage of life and that ain't the Camaro. All mom would have to do is open the door on a Camaro and she'd be off to the Dodge or Ford dealer.

They will drive home in a Charger Hellcat. You can't seriously think of the Challenger, let alone the Mustang, as a family vehicle. Ain't no mom who will want their folks to climb in through a coupe's front door, so I don't think this argument is sound. For a second, fun car or a "backup small kid hauler" the Camaro works just fine in our family.

Not saying the Camaro would be everyone's choice from these three, obviously, but not for the reason you quoted.

[ModernCamaroZ28Fan]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

They will drive home in a Charger Hellcat. You can't seriously think of the Challenger, let alone the Mustang, as a family vehicle. Ain't no mom who will want their folks to climb in through a coupe's front door, so I don't think this argument is sound.

You'd be surprised if you live where I do.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

35% of C7s were sold with a manual in an era when the manual take rate on cars in North America in general is about 5%. It was NOT an old method. Stop believing that crap. GM f'd up big time here

Why do people continue to completely miss the point on manuals? You own one right? Seriously, WTF????

Wasn't there some saying about the way the C8 is structured isn't manual-friendly? The centre tunnel is supposedly a big deal when it comes to body rigidity and transmission linkages would interfere with that. Something among those lines, and I don't know if this is an excuse or not.

From a manufacturer's perspective, you can actually make a manual out of DCT relatively easily since they work on similar principles. Porsche does it this way; the PDK and manual actually have a lot of shared parts.

That said, I actually do prefer the TR-6060 in the Camaro better than the TR-6070 in the C7. 6 gears just feel right.

Regardless, it is what it is. Manuals will be dying and there is pretty much nothing we can do about it.

Honestly if there is no manual car I like I will just do a hybrid or even EV. Either I get to shift or ditch it.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

They will drive home in a Charger Hellcat. You can't seriously think of the Challenger, let alone the Mustang, as a family vehicle. Ain't no mom who will want their folks to climb in through a coupe's front door, so I don't think this argument is sound. For a second, fun car or a "backup small kid hauler" the Camaro works just fine in our family.

Not saying the Camaro would be everyone's choice from these three, obviously, but not for the reason you quoted.

Charger is a closer competitor to cross-shopping people in the pony car market than a challenger. That works much better as a fun car for families than a camaro or mustang could ever hope for and it shows in their sales numbers.

Chargers sell almost double what camaros do and almost 50% more than mustang by themselves. Challengers sell more than camaro and about the same as mustang.

So what is dodge doing that ford and Chevy aren't?

Dodge has a history of insane financing plans that make their cars more affordable per month than chevy or ford offer.

Dodge has an option with 4 doors and usable back seats.


It's certainly not putting out better performing cars. They're definitely not known for producing better quality cars. They have advertising ...sure, but that only gets you as far as checking the reviews and such....which should otherwise steer those people to camaro or mustang. So it must be things that just aren't offered in mustang and camaro or price.... which advertising camaros has no hope of turning around.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Wasn't there some saying about the way the C8 is structured isn't manual-friendly? The centre tunnel is supposedly a big deal when it comes to body rigidity and transmission linkages would interfere with that. Something among those lines, and I don't know if this is an excuse or not.

From a manufacturer's perspective, you can actually make a manual out of DCT relatively easily since they work on similar principles. Porsche does it this way; the PDK and manual actually have a lot of shared parts.

That said, I actually do prefer the TR-6060 in the Camaro better than the TR-6070 in the C7. 6 gears just feel right.

Regardless, it is what it is. Manuals will be dying and there is pretty much nothing we can do about it.

Honestly if there is no manual car I like I will just do a hybrid or even EV. Either I get to shift or ditch it.

Yeah that’s how I understand it as well. They had to commit to ditching the stick pretty early in the design process if that’s the case. So someone about 5 years ago had to say “let’s just eliminate the stick all together”.

That dunce had to be some millennial in skinny jeans and a man bun

For what it’s worth I’ve had my Save The Manuals sticker from Car and Driver since 2010.

And I’ve owned only 1 automatic my whole life, and that was only my first car for one year. Since 1997 it’s been only manuals for me.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Yeah that’s how I understand it as well. They had to commit to ditching the stick pretty early in the design process if that’s the case. So someone about 5 years ago had to say “let’s just eliminate the stick all together”.

That dunce had to be some millennial in skinny jeans and a man bun

For what it’s worth I’ve had my Save The Manuals sticker from Car and Driver since 2010.

And I’ve owned only 1 automatic my whole life, and that was only my first car for one year. Since 1997 it’s been only manuals for me.

I mean, it's still a cool car. Saw two at my local dealer a few days ago, but yeah without the manual they just aren't as cool to me.

And yeah, only my first car was an auto. I eventually got fed up with the awful gear ratios and decided to learn a manual. I originally wanted to learn it more as a skill but eventually it became an interest. I know autos have come a long way, but I drive a stick just for my own entertainment, which include my beater cars. The skill is also handy when I travelled to Costa Rica and the only cars available for rent at that time were all stick shift.

I have been thinking about attaching a sticker like that... Not usually a sticker person but something subtle could work.