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Old 07-19-2022, 01:32 PM   #29
LiqTenExp

 
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Note, non-big gulp fits 103 Katech TB OD without issue.
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Old 07-19-2022, 01:51 PM   #30
radz28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOCAL.M6.ZLE View Post
Great points everyone... this conversation is very helpful for me. bottom line, i really miss my cammed LS1 and want a cam in this car also, and i know the fuel lobe bump should allow me to hit 700rwhp due to bumping my ceiling for E content correct?

The choice to add the ported blower, TB, ATI, BG was all good measure, and wanting to see the limits of stock fueling with JMS only. With the engine out, it seemed like a no brainer. But costs are not only rising, but i am worried that with the current mod list, i will shoot past the limits of my fueling, and will have overspent on mods... so, if the target is 725rwhp +/- or 850 at the fly... what is the minimum i need to add?

Perhaps just the cam, which will allow for more E and an ATI with 15% OD?
Is the ported blower, TB and BG even needed?
I've only got a 2650 on an otherwise pretty much stock car and play with another set up nearly the same, with some intake-side stuff, so I can't directly relate. I've had to completely rewrite a tune for the other car, including VTT, VVE, and a bunch of other stuff to get as much out of it as I can tell. But here's some of what I think I've learned from others:

I don't recall what you've stated about low-side fueling, but I don't think the JMS is going to help much, even with a cam (and larger lobe). If it hasn't already been said (I'm sure it has), you'll need a low side even though the high side is going to move more fuel from the bigger cam. That JMS barely supports FBO ZL1s on E', let alone what you're thinking about doing. You could probably stretch EQ leaner to get a little more out of it, and play with injector timing, but from what I can tell - you'll need a low-side, and that's another grand.

I understand you miss your cam, but were it me, for the power it seems like you're reaching for - I'd consider full intake (BG) and exhaust, Stage X Kong (or equivalent), with a low-side and shoot for E60. Maybe turn the screws on the blower a little more to get more airflow, but I'm not too big a fan of the OEM blower (ported or not) because of the heat. OK - you can fight it with E' and meth, but I'm not sure I like the long-term reliability of a fully-ported blower. Maybe it won't matter if you don't keep the car long. I only know what I'm looking for out of my car, and it's a keeper, so I'm looking at all that stuff when most probably don't have to/want to. You're in CA, so either you're not keeping the car past smog time or you have an alternative.

You can gain engine efficiency with the cam, but that, IMO, just complicates things for what it seems like you're looking for. If you just want a sound of a lumpy cam, you can pretty much make the tune do that on a stock-cam car, lol. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of what you're trying to do, so I'm just another nobody, but you can get pretty far on a stock long-block car with ported-blower with near-full-bolt-ons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOCAL.M6.ZLE View Post
Budget is now a concern because of all of the EXTRA (non-power adders) I wanted to add like... Banks Gauge, Synergy Tank, Catch Can, Katech VVT Delete, Oil Pump, Valve Covers, Coil Relocation, C5R Chain.... etc...
The tank, VCs, coil relocation-type stuff could theoretically wait. Even the gauge, as long as you have a WB. I wouldn't skip on the VVT-delete or oil pump though.

All JMO...
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Old 07-19-2022, 05:27 PM   #31
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I bet the big gulp helps when you go 103 tb, ported blower, and cam. Less restriction to help feed that air. If you don't, the intake will probably be the restriction, but how much would be hard to tell. Although it looks like some of these guys are pretty close to quantifying the difference. Run that jms with the cam and slowly add more e until you see where it falls off. You might be surprised, I've seen a few of these build videos close to 800whp with no lowside but who knows what the tune looks like and how close to the edge they're running. However those builds were more boost and no ethanol I believe. Hopefully you can see my car before you get yours started, still idle tuning at this point.
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Old 07-19-2022, 05:32 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
I've only got a 2650 on an otherwise pretty much stock car and play with another set up nearly the same, with some intake-side stuff, so I can't directly relate. I've had to completely rewrite a tune for the other car, including VTT, VVE, and a bunch of other stuff to get as much out of it as I can tell. But here's some of what I think I've learned from others:

I don't recall what you've stated about low-side fueling, but I don't think the JMS is going to help much, even with a cam (and larger lobe). If it hasn't already been said (I'm sure it has), you'll need a low side even though the high side is going to move more fuel from the bigger cam. That JMS barely supports FBO ZL1s on E', let alone what you're thinking about doing. You could probably stretch EQ leaner to get a little more out of it, and play with injector timing, but from what I can tell - you'll need a low-side, and that's another grand.

I understand you miss your cam, but were it me, for the power it seems like you're reaching for - I'd consider full intake (BG) and exhaust, Stage X Kong (or equivalent), with a low-side and shoot for E60. Maybe turn the screws on the blower a little more to get more airflow, but I'm not too big a fan of the OEM blower (ported or not) because of the heat. OK - you can fight it with E' and meth, but I'm not sure I like the long-term reliability of a fully-ported blower. Maybe it won't matter if you don't keep the car long. I only know what I'm looking for out of my car, and it's a keeper, so I'm looking at all that stuff when most probably don't have to/want to. You're in CA, so either you're not keeping the car past smog time or you have an alternative.

You can gain engine efficiency with the cam, but that, IMO, just complicates things for what it seems like you're looking for. If you just want a sound of a lumpy cam, you can pretty much make the tune do that on a stock-cam car, lol. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of what you're trying to do, so I'm just another nobody, but you can get pretty far on a stock long-block car with ported-blower with near-full-bolt-ons.



The tank, VCs, coil relocation-type stuff could theoretically wait. Even the gauge, as long as you have a WB. I wouldn't skip on the VVT-delete or oil pump though.

All JMO...

Great feedback Mr. Nobody

I have 7 more years to enjoy the car here before smog time which means before i sell the car out of state.



Your perspective on the JMS capability is different than what JRE is saying (they love those things) but I guess i will find out soon enough. Like you said, I want to phase out the stuff that can easily be added later, and thats why i was asking about the BG. I agree, I can add the guages and the tank later... Just wanted to kill as many birds with one stone while the car was taken apart.



Your feedback is valued.
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2022 M6 ZLE: Katech CNC Ported Blower + Ported Heads + 103mm TB + Oil Pump + C5R Chain + Valve Covers + Coil Relocation
TSP VVT and DoD Delete Covers + LME Chain Guide + DSX Billet Lid + ATI Damper + 9.17" Lower + 2.4" Upper + MM Wild CC
Coated ARH + AWE Touring + Magnaflow Center X + E85 + MSD Coils + Banks iDash + JMS Booster + Synergy Fender Tank
ALL the RED Rear End BMR Goodies + JRE Terminator Cam Package + Remote Tuning and Moral Support from TED @ JRE
BMR Motor Mounts + DMS Front HX + FIC 30's + APEX SM.10's + 305/345 R888R's = 770rwhp 785rwtq @E50 13.5psi
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Old 07-19-2022, 11:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOCAL.M6.ZLE View Post
Great feedback Mr. Nobody

I have 7 more years to enjoy the car here before smog time which means before i sell the car out of state.

Your perspective on the JMS capability is different than what JRE is saying (they love those things) but I guess i will find out soon enough. Like you said, I want to phase out the stuff that can easily be added later, and thats why i was asking about the BG. I agree, I can add the guages and the tank later... Just wanted to kill as many birds with one stone while the car was taken apart.

Your feedback is valued.
HAHAHA!!!

Hey - if Ted says JMS is okay - I'd run with it. He does this work all the time. I you're happy with what you've got with him so far - stick with him. I'm not calibrator, like him

CSP was able to run up to 800 WHP with the stock blower and stock low-side. That was on 93, though - no E'. That's why I was thinking JMS wouldn't be enough, but I don't have practical experience. Many others here do though, so hopefully they can comment.
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Old 07-20-2022, 05:14 AM   #34
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A stock ZL1 pump running at a peak of ~17.5 VDC will flow about 30% more fuel than stock at stock 14.5 volts. I used this thread as reference when deciding on what to do with my low side: https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=477429

I think I have mine set to 17.4v ramping from stock voltage at 50% pedal position using a JMS FuelMax. I run about 4.8-5.0 ms injector PW, 75 psi low side, 3400 psi high side like this making the power I do on 93 with a little meth (50/50 for cooling). Without Meth I was around a peak of 5.1 ms injector PW. The stock pump, with cam fuel lobe, and JMS FuelMax (or equivalent) has a lot to offer when keeping the stock injectors.

I also find that my low side is more stable pressure wise as compared to stock. You all know the charging system is smart on these cars and you will not stay at ~14.5 volts all the time, the JMS FuelMax will cover you and make sure you still hit the voltage you set it for (basically a DC to DC buck converter).

I don't run E85, but for those that do this may give you an idea of how much hp you could reach on stock low side.
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Old 07-20-2022, 09:13 AM   #35
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Depends on the fuel system. +30 injectors, LPE DI pump, and lower rail pressure will allow the low side to go a bit further. I wouldn't be surprised if it could keep up to 775-800whp @ 2175psi on the high side running E50-60.
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Old 07-20-2022, 10:05 AM   #36
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What King said. I run full e85 with the JMS, +30s and BB HPFP. Granted I’m at higher altitude but still should be e60+ anywhere else on stock pulleys. And low side still has room. High side is limiting factor still until I add cam.
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