[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I was very surprised by how easy and consistent my 16 SS A8 was. My very first pass after the 1,500 mile break in was a 12.3. Tires at 32 psi and just rolling into the throttle in sport mode.

My best every pass was a 12.2 and I once hot lapped consist 12.5 three in a row. I’m not a drag racer either.

I think the Alpha platform puts the power down extremely well and the lower power of the LT1 is its sweet spot. My 12.24 @116 mph moved off the Camaro6 fast list of 30 entries so that’s considered slow. The SS auto is a easy 12.0 car in the hands of a decent driver.

Now imagine what you (and I) would have done if we both had lowered the tire pressure, used launch mode, etc. You'd have been in the 11s for sure. Bone stock. Which is something that these trolls that pop in here don't understand. We're not talking up the Camaro. We're all just basically talking about it but the car is soo great that it sounds like we're talking it up. LOL!! And GM spoiled all of us. After the 6th Gen Camaro it's kinda hard to accept anything less. The Mustang and Challengers are seriously not on the same level.

Oh and the great thing about your car is that it can do those runs and then hit a track and run a killer time and not overheat or go into limp mode. You could run 11s and then keep up with a GT350. The GT might be able to run 11s but that version ain't keeping up with a GT350. And the PP2 won't keep up with a GT350 either nor will it run 11s. LOL!! Throw a blower on your car and...lights out!!

[oldman]

To me, I don't own one, the 1LE and then the Zl1 take it that much higher with a COMPLETE package, you get the suspension, you get the dampers, you get the axles, you get the high torque rating trans (auto or manual), you get the HD driveshaft, you get the cooling, you get the bigger brakes, you get the tire designed for the application. Complete, the options are just that, for comfort, looks etc, they have nothing to do with the performance of the vehicle or how it can be used.

Dodge is fighting an old platform and weight, Ford is fighting with their typical "pay to play" and this included the ADM, nothing new here. Heck even in 2004 ish, I was looking at the GT, I went down and said I don't mind waiting, I'm ready to order but I'm not paying above MSRP, heck they would even let me test drive a "GT"... yeah right I took my money elsewhere because the GT was so exclusive... I ended up with a Volvo R for a while (actually liked it). Everytime I go to a Chevy dealer, they want to know what they can do to get my business. I've been misstreated by the Dodge dealer too, I guess it is a different mind-set.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by oldman

To me, I don't own one, the 1LE and then the Zl1 take it that much higher with a COMPLETE package, you get the suspension, you get the dampers, you get the axles, you get the high torque rating trans (auto or manual), you get the HD driveshaft, you get the cooling, you get the bigger brakes, you get the tire designed for the application. Complete, the options are just that, for comfort, looks etc, they have nothing to do with the performance of the vehicle or how it can be used.

Dodge is fighting an old platform and weight, Ford is fighting with their typical "pay to play" and this included the ADM, nothing new here. Heck even in 2004 ish, I was looking at the GT, I went down and said I don't mind waiting, I'm ready to order but I'm not paying above MSRP, heck they would even let me test drive a "GT"... yeah right I took my money elsewhere because the GT was so exclusive... I ended up with a Volvo R for a while (actually liked it). Everytime I go to a Chevy dealer, they want to know what they can do to get my business. I've been misstreated by the Dodge dealer too, I guess it is a different mind-set.

For a while tho Chevy dealerships were not willing to give anyone a break on the Camaros. But now when you look at things in hindsight, your 1st paragraph explains why. Because the Camaro came with all those features and the Mustang skimped out. People were trying to buy the SS at Base model GT prices. And really, those were the only Mustangs that were getting discounted...Base GTs, the V6s, and the EBs. The GTs that were optioned up were not getting those discounts applied. Just like the SS wasn't getting discounts. However people want cheap and all they care about is the HP rating. Which is why the Mustangs started to outsell the Camaro. But then when these dudes got on tracks or the drag strip or light to light and noticed they couldn't hang or they were going into limp mode or they were having OPG failures it started to become obvious why those Mustangs were that cheap and the Camaros weren't. It seriously took a fully modded GT with LTs and tune to keep up with a bone stock SS. But again, all people see is HP and price. So cheapo bottom shelf "435 HP" GTs and those 5.7 liter Challys started to sell more and more. I even bought a GT. And a year later ditched that thing after finding out how far behind it was and how much I would have to do and spend to get it up to where I wanted it. And it still wouldn't be able to hang with a ZL1 around a track.

[oldman]

Right even the PP2 does NOT have a diff cooler? Really how much does that add to the cost of production 100 bucks? Oh we did not build it for the track! What????

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by oldman

Right even the PP2 does NOT have a diff cooler? Really how much does that add to the cost of production 100 bucks? Oh we did not build it for the track! What????

My opinion ...they didn’t want to warranty the PP2. They got all the media hype, build up, as a SS 1LE killer prior to its release and then thud (broken hearts). Not a track car ...but it’s got one good lap in it until it overheats and the tires are past their prime.

Same with the 2016 GT350 technology cars without coolers. Advertise it as a $49,995 most capable track car -every- then thud (Broken hearts). It’s not really a track car.

Now we have the CFTP. Ford leaves after the pre Lighting Lap and says they aren’t interested in pursuing lap times ...this year...when the A10 ZLE is there. Amazing that the ZL1 hangs with it.

Then track package options on Shelbys!?!? I just can’t take Ford seriously

...and I grew up in a Ford household. My father daily drove a 67 Mustang convertible when he passed when I was 10.

[oldman]

my dad owned Fords most of his life from model Ts to the 1981 Ford Escort (then he only owned Toyotas). 60s Mustang still my favorite car.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by hotlap

My opinion ...they didn’t want to warranty the PP2. They got all the media hype, build up, as a SS 1LE killer prior to its release and then thud (broken hearts). Not a track car ...but it’s got one good lap in it until it overheats and the tires are past their prime.

Same with the 2016 GT350 technology cars without coolers. Advertise it as a $49,995 most capable track car -every- then thud (Broken hearts). It’s not really a track car.

Now we have the CFTP. Ford leaves after the pre Lighting Lap and says they aren’t interested in pursuing lap times ...this year...when the A10 ZLE is there. Amazing that the ZL1 hangs with it.

Then track package options on Shelbys!?!? I just can’t take Ford seriously

...and I grew up in a Ford household. My father daily drove a 67 Mustang convertible when he passed when I was 10.

That is a great summary of Frod Performance... it's all hype and has been for years. Like yourself, I also grew up a Frod fan, owned several Mustangs of the stock and seriously modded varieties. I woke up one day I and realized it was all BS and still is. You are always buying something for your Frod to get on level ground with factory stock Chevy Camaro/Corvette. And from my experience it is just not worth the headaches. Plus with the GM cars, you get a real warranty, not some litigation bloated garbage like GT Snack Pack and GT350/500 cars. No thanks. I don't lease cars, we buy them outright and I'll take my money to the Chevy dealer and enjoy the fine products they are cranking out thank you. Frod fanboys can come on here and piss and moan about the Camaro "issues" all they want. We all know they are just trying to make themselves feel better about their inferior Mustangs. Harsh reality is Frod is just better at the marketing game than GM, wasn't always that way but it is today.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by LESS1

That is a great summary of Frod Performance... it's all hype and has been for years. Like yourself, I also grew up a Frod fan, owned several Mustangs of the stock and seriously modded varieties. I woke up one day I and realized it was all BS and still is. You are always buying something for your Frod to get on level ground with factory stock Chevy Camaro/Corvette. And from my experience it is just not worth the headaches. Plus with the GM cars, you get a real warranty, not some litigation bloated garbage like GT Snack Pack and GT350/500 cars. No thanks. I don't lease cars, we buy them outright and I'll take my money to the Chevy dealer and enjoy the fine products they are cranking out thank you. Frod fanboys can come on here and piss and moan about the Camaro "issues" all they want. We all know they are just trying to make themselves feel better about their inferior Mustangs. Harsh reality is Frod is just better at the marketing game than GM, wasn't always that way but it is today.

I think Frod spent soo many years (since 94) letting the aftermarket do their dirty work that they've fallen behind. They had all these different combinations of engines but they all made the same HP. Whether it was a turbo V6, NA V8, turbo 4 cyl, HO V6, supercharged V6, whatever it was, you still got that same 190 to 225 hp. And if you wanted to keep up with the 275 HP LT1 Z28 you had to spend a shit load of money on the Cobra and that is if you could even find one because they were limited. The Mustang became a car that if you couldn't afford the Cobra or didn't have the opportunity to buy it then you got stuck with a GT and had to mod the entire damn thing. And even modded they were struggling against the Z28s just like what happened from 2015 until 2018. And even today, you gotta throw coolers on the PP2 to hang with the SLE that comes with coolers. And you gotta step up to the exclusive and very expensive GT500 to hang with the much (relatively) cheaper ZL1. And let's not even get into the Vettes like the Z06 and ZR1 or the upcoming monsters GM has planned.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by RageWorx

We also have one or two members on this forum with Stock LT1s, P1X blower, LT4 fuel + W/M inj, not much else in the 700-750 rwhp range running mid 9s at ~145+ mph ... Pretty darn impressive for a little P1X on a Not to far from Stock A8 SS lol Pretty sure even a ZL1 would need some decent mods to put those times down.

And this right here is why I bought my 1SS in 2016 (ECS Supercharged now) and wasn't truly super interested in trading up to a ZL1 or otherwise when they came out the next year. I bought my Gen 6 Camaro as a part time track toy and configured it as such.

If I only had one car or I was going to drive it more often having all those nice features and overall complete do everything packages like the ZL1 or new GT500 would be justifiable in my mind ... But for how often I drive mine and what I mainly use it for (Drag and Strait line) I'm perfectly fine with building up my reg A8 SS and the money saved for other projects.

I remember running 11.7s and 11.8s (around 117-118 mph) my 16 A8 SS Stock with just a MT DR and watching the 2017 A10 ZL1s hit 12s all night (I know they are faster than that LOL!) but in the real world no one gave a crap that I didn't have a ZL1 because on that day/track I was faster/lighter (for way less) so who cares LOL. OK the SS will be out handled by the ZL1 in a road racing setting which again no one at this track cared about ... but lets not pretend that the SS is a slouch in this regard and the difference isn't light years away especially with some cheaper suspension/brake/tire upgrades to the lighter SS.

In fact all the fastest times (1/4 mile) on the 6th Gen Camaro platform are from the A8 SS and not the A10 ZL1 (not yet anyway) ... I haven't checked but I'm sure you can say the same with the S550 platform (the A10 GTs own the fastest strait line times on the S550 platform and not the higher trim GT500s or 350s).

Even for AutoX my A8 SS is much cheaper to run for the day (tires and brake parts cheaper) and the SS is noticeably lighter (even with my ECS Supercharger system my car weighed 3580 lbs without me in it much lighter than a ZL1).

However if serious road racing is to be done a ZL1 or 1LE equipped car is the obvious way to go No Doubt!

In the end if the day it all depends on what your intended use for the car is as to which is the better value/buy situation.

But I agree ... now more than ever the current SS and GT offerings are the best stock platforms they have ever been in regards to being able to Boost and Go Have Fun being a strong solid starting foundation from the factory to punch way above their Price when it comes to upgrade-ability and potential.

If you want to mod/build (possibly save money not always) starting with an SS or GT is a great way to go with today's offerings .... But for those who only want to do some light mods but would rather just drive the car and have it be awesome already from the factory no upgrades really needed (or keep factory Warranty!!!) ... The ZL1 and GT500 are the Bag



Anyway with the money saved LOL I'm planning on grabbing another project ..... Putting an order in on a A90/A91 MKV Supra to build up for AutoX/Road Racing (I prefer smaller lighter track cars with shorter wheel base ... I know these new ZL1, GT500s are awesome on track but are Still very BIG and Long Sports Coupes even my SS).

Then The Gen 6 SS can be the dedicated Drag/Strait line weapon (was trying to stay somewhat balanced with the SS for handling and strait line but when the Supra arrives ... its Heads, Cam (pistons), and Converter time for the SS !)

-Jon

I think the a6 not a10 is still king in the fastest highly modded s550's, but yea only reinforces your point of starting with and modding an ss or gt vs higher trim models.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by oldman

Heck I took offense to cheap, the seats look just like my base SS seats, work and feel fine to me, maybe they should lose weight or sumting.... After 3 years the seat show NO wear, this car ain't an Audi jeezuss needs to help me.

Not too mention, most in depth reviews complain about the camaros interior ergonomics but place the materials amd quality of build of the camaro interior over the mustang. The mustang has the updated optional digital dash as a + over the camaro, that's it.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think Frod spent soo many years (since 94) letting the aftermarket do their dirty work that they've fallen behind. They had all these different combinations of engines but they all made the same HP. Whether it was a turbo V6, NA V8, turbo 4 cyl, HO V6, supercharged V6, whatever it was, you still got that same 190 to 225 hp. And if you wanted to keep up with the 275 HP LT1 Z28 you had to spend a shit load of money on the Cobra and that is if you could even find one because they were limited. The Mustang became a car that if you couldn't afford the Cobra or didn't have the opportunity to buy it then you got stuck with a GT and had to mod the entire damn thing. And even modded they were struggling against the Z28s just like what happened from 2015 until 2018. And even today, you gotta throw coolers on the PP2 to hang with the SLE that comes with coolers. And you gotta step up to the exclusive and very expensive GT500 to hang with the much (relatively) cheaper ZL1. And let's not even get into the Vettes like the Z06 and ZR1 or the upcoming monsters GM has planned.

So true, one correction though. Stock Snack Pack cars with MPSC2 tires won't keep up with stock SLE on all but the longest tracks and even then this is for a handful of laps at best. I don't run TT events so min 20 min session and these "SS 1LE killers" are far behind any decently driven SLE, even on VIR, RA...etc. My poor beast has been parked and hasn't moved since early Dec. Heading to Chevy this week to change out all fluids and touch up my dynamic alignment. I can't wait for the tracks to open... only a few more weeks to go but it seems a lot longer. I noticed you are in NJ, have you ever run NJMP? I went for the first time last year and ran Lightning with Speed District. Planning to go again this year. Speed District was great with 8 20+ Min sessions for less than $300. Let me know if you are interested.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

My opinion ...they didn’t want to warranty the PP2. They got all the media hype, build up, as a SS 1LE killer prior to its release and then thud (broken hearts). Not a track car ...but it’s got one good lap in it until it overheats and the tires are past their prime.

Same with the 2016 GT350 technology cars without coolers. Advertise it as a $49,995 most capable track car -every- then thud (Broken hearts). It’s not really a track car.

Now we have the CFTP. Ford leaves after the pre Lighting Lap and says they aren’t interested in pursuing lap times ...this year...when the A10 ZLE is there. Amazing that the ZL1 hangs with it.

Then track package options on Shelbys!?!? I just can’t take Ford seriously

...and I grew up in a Ford household. My father daily drove a 67 Mustang convertible when he passed when I was 10.

They have had a ton of misteps this gen that is for sure. I think the whole no track pack thing on the "base" 350 was they wanted to try and steal headlines with the low MSRP at the time but just another fumble. Performance wise, they really botched a lot of things this generation.

It's funny, you grew up in a Ford house and are pro GM now. I grew up in a GM house and lean more Ford lol

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think Frod spent soo many years (since 94) letting the aftermarket do their dirty work that they've fallen behind. They had all these different combinations of engines but they all made the same HP. Whether it was a turbo V6, NA V8, turbo 4 cyl, HO V6, supercharged V6, whatever it was, you still got that same 190 to 225 hp. And if you wanted to keep up with the 275 HP LT1 Z28 you had to spend a shit load of money on the Cobra and that is if you could even find one because they were limited. The Mustang became a car that if you couldn't afford the Cobra or didn't have the opportunity to buy it then you got stuck with a GT and had to mod the entire damn thing. And even modded they were struggling against the Z28s just like what happened from 2015 until 2018. And even today, you gotta throw coolers on the PP2 to hang with the SLE that comes with coolers. And you gotta step up to the exclusive and very expensive GT500 to hang with the much (relatively) cheaper ZL1. And let's not even get into the Vettes like the Z06 and ZR1 or the upcoming monsters GM has planned.

Yep back then they definitely just let the aftermarket take care of things. I don't want to bring sales into it but it didn't seem to matter to them because they were selling them hand over foot. The F-body cars dominated performance wise, but towards the end of them the Mustang was outselling the Camaro and Firebird combined. From a business standpoint if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I don't think that is the case anymore, I think Ford just keeps messing up. Look at all the updates mustang has gone through since the Camaro came back. They care now, they just don't can't seem to get it right. Once Camaro came back and started stealing Mustang's piece of the pie their has been numerous updates

2010 all new sheetmetal for the S197
2011 Coyote and new V-6 debuts, new M6 and A6
2013 another face lift and slight bump in power
2015 S550, power bump
2018 Power bump, A10,
2019 PP2,
2020 Ecoboost high performance pack

And that's just the base and GT. I think it's clear they care now. They just don't implement it as good as GM does.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

They have had a ton of misteps this gen that is for sure. I think the whole no track pack thing on the "base" 350 was they wanted to try and steal headlines with the low MSRP at the time but just another fumble. Performance wise, they really botched a lot of things this generation.

It's funny, you grew up in a Ford house and are pro GM now. I grew up in a GM house and lean more Ford lol

Yep. As a kid, we had Fords and Mercurys in the house

Three factors that swung me to GM
1) My mother remarried and my much older step brother drove a Chevelle SS 396 that he took me places in. I was hooked

2) My best friends, older sister dated a guy with a GTO ram air III

3) Smokey and the Bandit. I loved Trans Ams and became a Pontiac guy, alternating to Camaro when I liked them better (gen3).

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yep back then they definitely just let the aftermarket take care of things. I don't want to bring sales into it but it didn't seem to matter to them because they were selling them hand over foot. The F-body cars dominated performance wise, but towards the end of them the Mustang was outselling the Camaro and Firebird combined. From a business standpoint if it ain't broke don't fix it.

This had a lot to do with the issues at the St. Therese Plant in Quebec, Canada. By the time the LS was put in the 4th gen in 1998, GM already knew they were killing the Fbody.

During that time (I was 18 in '98), if you stepped into any GM showroom to look at a Camaro, they were rare to see. Even then, the salespeople would try to sell you a Cavalier or Monte Carlo FWD POS...it was brutal. GM had already completely given up on the Fbody so it was easy for Ford to carry on without much thought and just sell Mustangs like crazy (most were base V6 models).

The plant was closed, crushed, and land sold off. That ended their rights to build F-bodies for GM.

I have a lot of stories from those days after I bought my 1999 SS M6, and meeting tons of modded GTs and Cobras. They were not happy with the results of running my stock 4th gen.