new BMW M4 vs Z28

[Deki]

Originally Posted by prostcj

Seems like most of the m cars I see at the track or autox are the earlier models.

They are great cars but not the best from a value per track performance perspective.

I can infer that since the mags said the Mustang GT was said to be as track capable as the new M3 and the track pack was shown to be outgunned by the 1le that there for the 1le > M3.

Even the mustang guys who lurk on this forum to argue against camaros (not enough mustang forums I take it...) could agree with that simple logic.

New models are speculation but have we seen anything to suggest from bmw recently that they are getting more track focused?





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Nobody is arguing that the 1LE is not better then an M3 on a track, and nobody is arguing value either. Of course a 1LE is a better track car for the money then anything made by BMW. In fact, the 1LE is a better track car for the money then anything else you can buy brand new.

Also, no Mustang guys on this forum are here to argue against Camaros. I think the ones who do that get weeded out pretty early on and don't actively participate. I've been on this forum for quite a while and most of US Mustang guys are here because at one time or another we have either owned a Camaro, or considered buying one and just love the car in general.

As for the M4, I guess we will have to wait and see. I don't see any radical changes in their suspension or anything ground breaking happening on that end. What the car will have is 140 toqrue more then a previous car and 300 pounds less weight. If that is the case, if it runs a similar compound tire to the 1LE, it should be faster. I don't think BMW is really making an M4 to be more track focused. They haven't brought over anything track focused to this side of the pond ever (CSL, GTR, R, Lightweight, GTS, CRT or any of the specialty track focused models). We got a Lime Rock Edition which is a joke. M3s are more of a GT car then a racer, and always have been, so I don't see the M4 straying from that formula too far by even throwing anything less then a long lasting summer tire on it. For an extra 20k is it worth it over a Mustang or Camaro? I think it is. Am I able to justify to myself to spend that much more money to have one? I bought a Mustang, so that should answer that.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Deki

As for the M4, I guess we will have to wait and see. I don't see any radical changes in their suspension or anything ground breaking happening on that end. What the car will have is 140 toqrue more then a previous car and 300 pounds less weight. If that is the case, if it runs a similar compound tire to the 1LE, it should be faster. I don't think BMW is really making an M4 to be more track focused. They haven't brought over anything track focused to this side of the pond ever (CSL, GTR, R, Lightweight, GTS, CRT or any of the specialty track focused models). We got a Lime Rock Edition which is a joke. M3s are more of a GT car then a racer, and always have been, so I don't see the M4 straying from that formula too far by even throwing anything less then a long lasting summer tire on it. For an extra 20k is it worth it over a Mustang or Camaro? I think it is. Am I able to justify to myself to spend that much more money to have one? I bought a Mustang, so that should answer that.

+1 too early to tell. Plus with the M4 +-600 reliable HP can probably be had with a tune. Of course the LS3 can hold big HP, but you have to add 100 pounds and many $$ to get the same HP in a 400+ pound heavier car. And I am sure 1LEs have shared a track with the M4 during development.

Bang for the buck 1LE: > M4
Tracking: Wait and see. For sure the M4 will be competitive.
But,
Tracking: Stock Z28 > Stock M4 (IMO back to topic)

[trademaster]

Originally Posted by McRat

I'm not thinking M4 > 1LE. And it has nothing to do with the cars.

For many years, a lot GM hotshoes have been acquiring and thrashing 1LE cars. Until very recently, the 1LE code was not even KNOWN by more than 1% of the GM performance car buyers. It's a race Camaro thingy. Since 1988, the 1LE has been very rare, and only ordered by racers. I guarantee you no dealer ever ordered a 1LE car unless he had buyer for it already. The 5th gen might be different, but I dunno.

A 1998 1LE option Camaro often smoked cars costing several times as much. Why? The 1LE crew were very dedicated racers on a budget.

Sorry, but M-series beemers simply aren't racer only cars. Few ever see a racetrack.

So a typical M series is owned by a typical driver. A typical 1LE is owned by somebody who enjoys racing on a budget.

If you have to bet on seat-time vs. bucks, always take the one that has worn out the most tires.

I'd put someone who has raced their 98 1LE since they bought it up against any typical BMW owner. If that 98 owner "freshened up" to a 2014 1LE? It would be like the bombing of Dresden. Overkill and ugly.

I very rarely see 4th or 5th gen Camaro at the track. Very, very rarely.

[Cuda7050]

Originally Posted by trademaster

I very rarely see 4th or 5th gen Camaro at the track. Very, very rarely.

Unfortunately true. Camaro night at the local drag strip 8 Camaro's show up. Autocross, 1 Camaro shows up (me). HPDE 2-3 Camaro's, but local Camaro cruise night 70 show up.

[pgviper]

I'm just going to leave this here...

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/bm...750-81366.html

Z/28, ZL1, hell even a 1le is in a completely DIFFERENT LEAGUE!!!

[McRat]

Originally Posted by Deki

Dude I'm sorry, but every single HPDE even I've attended both in AZ and CA, I rarely see a Camaro but always see a ton of M cars. People do track them, and track them often. Yes you find a non car guy with some money that just buys an M of a certain series just because it's the most expensive model available, but a large majority of the M buyers I would say are car guys that are looking for an every day ride they can take to the track and beat the hell out of.

There are probably 100 times as many M cars made as 1LE cars.

Many years the production was under 100 units. The 1LE's were for competition, not open track days. Some were as light as the C5 Z06 Vettes, at 3100lb. No AC no T-Tops, etc. Gutted, and cheap.

They dominated FS AutoX until the Camaro died, and showroom stock SCCA roadracing.

No, the 1LE was not supposed to be a daily driver. Nor expensive. Many never got license plates at all, and spent no time on the street. They were trailer queens. But they were street legal and could be licensed. Most for sale now have been modified with cages, etc. Not street worthy.

[McRat]

Brief check would say M-series total production has been 300,000.

Up to 1999 (last year for GM built 1LE's until now), only about 2,000 1LE's were built.

Not sure how many Y2Y 1LE's were built, but not many.

Nor do I know the number of 5th gens made.

But you can see why you might see more M series than 1LE's in person.

[McRat]

I wish I would have been on this board in 2012:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206215

$5500 for a real piece of history, and a competent track car.

[1leNPP]

GM made only 1826 2013 1LE . The first year you could get a 5 gen Camaro 1LE . I think you see that number go up a bit more in 2014 .

[McRat]

Trivia - The "old" 1LE could be ordered with or without AC. Without AC cost MORE.

Why? 1LE + No AC triggered the track pack modifications. Even bigger brakes (Vette), coolers, aluminum driveshaft, etc. While still sold as a street car, they were not intended for street use.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by McRat

There are probably 100 times as many M cars made as 1LE cars.

Many years the production was under 100 units. The 1LE's were for competition, not open track days. Some were as light as the C5 Z06 Vettes, at 3100lb. No AC no T-Tops, etc. Gutted, and cheap.

They dominated FS AutoX until the Camaro died, and showroom stock SCCA roadracing.

No, the 1LE was not supposed to be a daily driver. Nor expensive. Many never got license plates at all, and spent no time on the street. They were trailer queens. But they were street legal and could be licensed. Most for sale now have been modified with cages, etc. Not street worthy.

I'm not even talking about 1LE cars, I'm just talking about Camaros in general. Also, the previous gen 1LE was a joke. Yeah it had heavier duty components, but the bread and butter of the 4th gens was the drive train, not the suspension geometry or handling prowess.

[McRat]

Originally Posted by Deki

I'm not even talking about 1LE cars, I'm just talking about Camaros in general. Also, the previous gen 1LE was a joke. Yeah it had heavier duty components, but the bread and butter of the 4th gens was the drive train, not the suspension geometry or handling prowess.

Whatever you say slick. If you think an old pushrod V8 is better tech than what BMW can put out of their race shop full of DOHC stuff, I'd have to agree.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by McRat

Whatever you say slick. If you think an old pushrod V8 is better tech than what BMW can put out of their race shop full of DOHC stuff, I'd have to agree.

Hell yeah I think pushrods are better. Smaller dimensions for packaging, lower weight, lower center of gravity, less complicated, more torque on the low end...am I missing anything? I had a 4th gen Fbody, there is nothing in the world that could have made that fish faced monstrosity a better car lol but man was it sweet pulling up to brand new Mustangs and shitting on their pride with a 6 year old Z28.

[L99CAMA2011]

New M3, M4 are trapping 117 to 119 mph , still think this is 1Le territory. Like I said this is a Z28 rival.