The counter EV argument

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

GM is focusing all of its plants that will build BEVs to have zero net carbon emissions. This means offsetting whatever carbon is emitted with measures taken to absorb carbon back in from the atmosphere.

Factory ZERO highlights include:

* GM reused or recycled almost every material that came out of the facility during conversion, including crushed concrete from the old plant floor, which was repurposed for temporary roads around the facility.

* Storm water will be recycled to reduce discharge costs and offset the cost of potable water.

* Treated storm water will be used in cooling towers and the plant’s fire suppression system.

* The site features a 30-kilowatt solar carport and 516-kW ground-mounted photovoltaic solar array from DTE Energy.

*Factory ZERO’s site has a 16.5-acre wildlife habitat that is home to monarch butterflies, foxes, and turkeys.

https://www.gm.com/factoryzero?gclid...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

What is GM’s plan for the batteries at the end of life?

If each vehicle has 1,000 lbs of batteries and 12-15 million vehicles are scraped each year. Will that be net zero too?

If I sell my BEV at 110,000 miles, will it have the original batteries still in it? Will it have a comparable residual value as my ICE?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

So you’re saying ALL of the energy required to produce ALL of the part AND assemble them will come from renewable energies?
Attachment 1085160

Nope. It’s not about ENERGY it’s about CARBON. Just that the way the plant will operate is they will offset the carbon emissions by other measures that counter and/or absorb the carbon emissions.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

What is GM’s plan for the batteries at the end of life?

If each vehicle has 1,000 lbs of batteries and 12-15 million vehicles are scraped each year. Will that be net zero too?

If I sell my BEV at 110,000 miles, will it have the original batteries still in it? Will it have a comparable residual value as my ICE?

Battery life is not factored into the carbon emissions of manufacture, just like engine life isn’t factored into the carbon emissions of ICE manufacture. But, still to answer the battery end of life question, part of what supports the Factory Zero concept is the process of using expired automotive batteries to capture and store solar energy for later use in powering the manufacturing process instead of burning coal or natural gas. Automotive lithium ion batteries that are no longer capable of fast charge / discharge of energy for driving purposes are still very well suited for gradual charge, slow discharge for these types of operations.

There is also already a lithium battery remanufacturing industry in place to manage end-of-life for hybrid vehicles that have been in the market for about 20 years. The availability of higher capacity BEV batteries will help grow that industry.

If you sell your BEV with only 110K miles it will most likely have the original battery in it unless something happened along the way to physically damage it or it was replaced under warranty. Warranties for batteries are typically 8 years / 100,000 miles. Some automakers have chosen to offer even longer warranties.

Can’t answer the residual question. Way out of my swim lane, but I’m sure there are a lot more factors impacting residual than battery or no.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Battery life is not factored into the carbon emissions of manufacture, just like engine life isn’t factored into the carbon emissions of ICE manufacture. But, still to answer the battery end of life question, part of what supports the Factory Zero concept is the process of using expired automotive batteries to capture and store solar energy for later use in powering the manufacturing process instead of burning coal or natural gas. Automotive lithium ion batteries that are no longer capable of fast charge / discharge of energy for driving purposes are still very well suited for gradual charge, slow discharge for these types of operations.

This accounts for only part of the downstream impact. I was curious if the entire cycle is accounted for when “we” say net zero.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

There is also already a lithium battery remanufacturing industry in place to manage end-of-life for hybrid vehicles that have been in the market for about 20 years. The availability of higher capacity BEV batteries will help grow that industry.

BEV vehicles to this point (20 years) is minuscule compared to what is coming.

Melting down ICE drivetrains compared to 12-15 billion pounds of batteries in scraped vehicle each year.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

If you sell your BEV with only 110K miles it will most likely have the original battery in it unless something happened along the way to physically damage it or it was replaced under warranty. Warranties for batteries are typically 8 years / 100,000 miles. Some automakers have chosen to offer even longer warranties.

Can’t answer the residual question. Way out of my swim lane, but I’m sure there are a lot more factors impacting residual than battery or no.

Residual value is an unknown for early adopters. $$$$$?

Including the disposal cost.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Nope. It’s not about ENERGY it’s about CARBON. Just that the way the plant will operate is they will offset the carbon emissions by other measures that counter and/or absorb the carbon emissions.

So this is like John Kerry’s private jet offsets that allow people like him to do what they do because they care.

Palmer is correct in saying….

“If you buy an electric vehicle, you’re not buying a zero-emission vehicle,” he stressed.

“It takes about 70% more carbon to build an electric vehicle than it does an internal combustion vehicle.”

In other words, an electric car is responsible for fewer emissions eventually, but not from the start.

The emissions required to build an electric car, revealed Volvo, means it could take some years of driving before any benefits kick in.

I realize you said ramping up mass production will bring greater efficiency. At this point there is an up front excess to produce BEVs and an unaccounted for end of life impact (consumer and environment)

[Devstrike]

https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-super...m_content=post

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

This accounts for only part of the downstream impact. I was curious if the entire cycle is accounted for when “we” say net zero.

Not sure what you’re getting at here. Manufacturers can control the carbon impact of what they manufacture. How the customer uses and eventually dispose of it is not on the manufacturer’s balance sheet financially or in terms of disposal carbon impact.

Originally Posted by hotlap

BEV vehicles to this point (20 years) is minuscule compared to what is coming.

Melting down ICE drivetrains compared to 12-15 billion pounds of batteries in scraped vehicle each year.

Pretty much my point. Remanufacturers who’ve been able to make profit remanufacturing 1.8 kWh batteries are in good position when they start remanufacturing 20 - 200 kWh batteries. But some of the spent batteries will be used for second life purposes. Batteries that can no longer be used for automotive can be re-purposed for energy storage for solar farms and wind farms. Very few batteries will actually make it to the scrap pile.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Residual value is an unknown for early adopters. $$$$$?

Including the disposal cost.

Again, as far as residual value, you could just as well be speaking to me in Portuguese. I’d understand it just about as well.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

So this is like John Kerry’s private jet offsets that allow people like him to do what they do because they care.

Palmer is correct in saying….
I realize you said ramping up mass production will bring greater efficiency. At this point there is an up front excess to produce BEVs and an unaccounted for end of life impact (consumer and environment)

Palmer is only correct using the example he used. There are enough BEVs in production now to prove him right in some examples and very, very wrong in other examples.

I know nothing about “John Kerry’s private jet” so I will not comment on that.

[90503]

Found this article. Similar topic. Maybe even about the same as the op's link.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...?ocid=msedgntp

[90503]

Never heard of this one...another high-end EV...520 units at 169K apiece...lol

https://www.businessinsider.com/luci...-range-2021-11



What a surprise. Another four door sedan...(The dying segment of cars...Unless they are an EV, that is...lol)

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Nope. It’s not about ENERGY it’s about CARBON. Just that the way the plant will operate is they will offset the carbon emissions by other measures that counter and/or absorb the carbon emissions.

The big push in the Oil & Gas industry is to reduce Carbon emissions and my company is spending big to make that happen.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Found this article. Similar topic. Maybe even about the same as the op's link.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...?ocid=msedgntp

Yeah, they’re reporting on the same Volvo statement. But as I’ve said before, that’s one company, one vehicle. The Hummer EV is being built with significantly less carbon emissions and is pretty much the blueprint for how EVs will be built, at least in the US.

Originally Posted by 90503

Never heard of this one...another high-end EV...520 units at 169K apiece...lol

https://www.businessinsider.com/luci...-range-2021-11

Attachment 1085184

Maybe it’s just because of the industry I work in, but I’ve been hearing about Lucid for at least 5-6 years.

I have a friend / work colleague who lives a few miles from Lucid’s HQ / Proving Grounds so I guess I get a lot of news on them that way. Lucid is following the Tesla / Hummer model of putting the most expensive products out first to get a jump on paying back some of the investment costs. Like Tesla, they will follow with a number of models in the $40- 80k range.

A lot of my ex-coworkers and bosses now have big jobs at EV startup companies. Two of my ex-bosses and one vehicle line executive I used to provide info to are CEOs of EV companies. One of my schoolmates who was also a work colleague is VP of Engineering at another EV maker and two powertrain engineers I used to work with are now VP of engineering at EV companies. Other colleagues are sprinkled around a number of EV makers. We talk. Sometimes over a beer. Sometimes my team is working on consulting projects for some of them.

Originally Posted by 90503

What a surprise. Another four door sedan...(The dying segment of cars...Unless they are an EV, that is...lol)

Lucid is actually much later to market than their original plan. Like 2-3 years. That’s probably why they’re launching with a sedan in an SUV world. If the vehicle had launched when intended, Tesla X would have just been coming to market and Tesla S would still be the one to beat. They have at least two new products coming in the next 2-3 years that will hit at the SUV/CUV market. As a startup I think they didn’t have the Planning resources to alert them to how quickly the market was moving away from sedans. That or they just didn’t believe it. The interesting thing is, though, their IPO last week placed them with a market cap that is higher than Honda. Crazy times.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not sure what you’re getting at here. Manufacturers can control the carbon impact of what they manufacture. How the customer uses and eventually dispose of it is not on the manufacturer’s balance sheet financially or in terms of disposal carbon impact.

Pretty much my point. Remanufacturers who’ve been able to make profit remanufacturing 1.8 kWh batteries are in good position when they start remanufacturing 20 - 200 kWh batteries. But some of the spent batteries will be used for second life purposes. Batteries that can no longer be used for automotive can be re-purposed for energy storage for solar farms and wind farms. Very few batteries will actually make it to the scrap pile.


Again, as far as residual value, you could just as well be speaking to me in Portuguese. I’d understand it just about as well.

I was pointing out that BEV, and net zero, is a little misleading. The manufacturer of BEV isn’t more ecologically better than manufacturing ICE, GM (and others) are using the transition to make other offsetting improvements. As you’ve said, these could also be done with ICE.

I was asking about the end of life to understand if the full cycle is being considered when we talk about the efficiency of BEVs. Does seems so…

https://www.era-environmental.com/bl...icle-batteries

Similar with BEV resale or life expectancy. Will owners be looking at a large expenditure at 110k? …or will the life of a BEV be significantly less than an iCE?

I haven’t been interested in BEV so I don’t know, but it does seem as if the entire picture isn’t being presented through those rose colored glasses.

[cmitchell17]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Only a minority believe they are saving the world with Tesla's. Just like back in the 2000's you had a minority believe their Prius's were saving the world. Others may pretend to go, " yeah man! I am saving the world!" but they are doing that to "fit in". Reason why you have people pretending to care about saving the world is because electricity is cheap right now.

It's why people didn't care about SUV's and Hummers until gas prices skyrocketed. Right now it cost me $37.50 to go 1109 miles in my Model 3. Where if that was in my Camaro SS, that would be $215. You will see a ton of people who are just trying to fit into the mold quickly flip if the cost of electricity shot up to or above gas prices.

I do not believe I am saving the world with my Tesla. I know battery manufacturing is a dirty process plus my electricity is coming from fossil fuels. I still love the car and an EV works for my lifestyle right now.

I feel though these high number of battery vehicles (Hummer EV looks to be a major offender) are getting a free pass though and of course the government is going to incentivize it. And to me there is no way EVs will have the level of performance they do if they have to significantly cut back on batteries. Even though you see a new hyped-up, click-bait article on batteries every day. And like you said electricity is cheap right now.

I still think the shortage is already happening, and its very convenient that it already happened during the "supply chain crisis".