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Old 10-14-2021, 08:49 PM   #1
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And So It Begins - The End of the HP Wars??

The times they are a changin’.

https://www.powernationtv.com/post/f...022+Mustang+V8
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:07 PM   #2
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Maybe this is why you can no longer get the GMPP cold air intake for 2022.
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Old 10-14-2021, 11:34 PM   #3
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It isn't the end of the HP wars. Even if the restrictions became soo tight that they had to drop down to 220 HP they would still be battling each other. However it is starting to become the end of the high stock HP wars for gas powered engines.

Look at it this way, the Mustangs lose HP due to Ford recalibrating the tune. Meaning you still have the same engine components and compression ratio. So it is nothing an aftermarket tune won't fix. So basically you'll be gaining n extra 10 HP with a tune over the stock tune.

The HC Durango being discontinued might be more because it wasn't a strong seller. Most people in the SUV market are not looking at a gas guzzling supercharged V8 700+ HP unit. They're looking at Tucsons and Sorrentos and X3s and those types of vehicles. The SUV market was not gonna pan out well for the HC anyway. Plus they already had the Trackhawk in that market. It was a good endeavor but ultimately it failed. Now if the Durango AND the TH were both being discontinued then that's a different story.

Anyway the wars will continue even when ICE engines are long gone. It's just that now things are starting to shape up.

And sure, they all planned to be gas free by 2035. But that just means that starting now they will little by little transition people towards EVs. Most likely there's only about 5 years left on the clock IF that. Think about it. Gas free by 2035 which is only 13 years away means that there will probably be over 50% EVs on the road in 5 years. Maybe 75%.
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Old 10-15-2021, 06:02 AM   #4
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This is why I went out and bought a ZL1. I also own a Tesla Model 3 and while it makes for a great daily driver it will not scratch the itch of true enthusiasts just yet. Maybe GM can find a way to inject some soul into a performance EV but it will not be easy. You can have all the instant torque in the world but it won’t replace the sensation you get from driving an ICE based vehicle, especially a V8. Who would have thought the Upcoming Nissan 400z will soon be the go to vehicle for enthusiasts? They are the only manufacturer I know of getting ready to release a 400hp sports coupe with a manual transmission. Even the next gen Miata is planned to go hybrid.
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Old 10-15-2021, 07:33 AM   #5
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Maybe this is why you can no longer get the GMPP cold air intake for 2022.
Wasn't CAI removed as an option for the '21 model year?
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:43 AM   #6
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This isn't exactly the case. This has happened in the past, where CAFE standards affected the advertised output of an engine slightly. Although it is signaling a 20 hp drop, in actuality the Mustang won't really be any slower or faster than it is already.

I heard that GM was able to compensate for the change, and thus no advertised output change.

On the other hand, enthusiasts must realize that the "end" is eminent. With the push for electric vehicles and heightened awareness of climate, there will be forces that will diminish the great American performance vehicles as we know them today.
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Old 10-15-2021, 09:04 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
It isn't the end of the HP wars. Even if the restrictions became soo tight that they had to drop down to 220 HP they would still be battling each other. However it is starting to become the end of the high stock HP wars for gas powered engines.

Look at it this way, the Mustangs lose HP due to Ford recalibrating the tune. Meaning you still have the same engine components and compression ratio. So it is nothing an aftermarket tune won't fix. So basically you'll be gaining n extra 10 HP with a tune over the stock tune.

The HC Durango being discontinued might be more because it wasn't a strong seller. Most people in the SUV market are not looking at a gas guzzling supercharged V8 700+ HP unit. They're looking at Tucsons and Sorrentos and X3s and those types of vehicles. The SUV market was not gonna pan out well for the HC anyway. Plus they already had the Trackhawk in that market. It was a good endeavor but ultimately it failed. Now if the Durango AND the TH were both being discontinued then that's a different story.

Anyway the wars will continue even when ICE engines are long gone. It's just that now things are starting to shape up.

And sure, they all planned to be gas free by 2035. But that just means that starting now they will little by little transition people towards EVs. Most likely there's only about 5 years left on the clock IF that. Think about it. Gas free by 2035 which is only 13 years away means that there will probably be over 50% EVs on the road in 5 years. Maybe 75%.
Blaq, I don't quite see this for the trucks. Yes they may beat up on our pony cars, but the GM trucks are the bread and butter of the company, and right now this is what they are surviving on. Anyone willing to pay 80k + for any of the trucks, and you can bet that GM will find a way to make them, with the v8s, as long as possible. So look way beyond 5 years before you see a noticeable absence of v8s in your Sierras, Escalades and Silvies. I will wager even Corvette will still feature its v8s well beyond 5 years.
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Old 10-15-2021, 10:10 AM   #8
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Blaq, I don't quite see this for the trucks. Yes they may beat up on our pony cars, but the GM trucks are the bread and butter of the company, and right now this is what they are surviving on. Anyone willing to pay 80k + for any of the trucks, and you can bet that GM will find a way to make them, with the v8s, as long as possible. So look way beyond 5 years before you see a noticeable absence of v8s in your Sierras, Escalades and Silvies. I will wager even Corvette will still feature its v8s well beyond 5 years.
While I agree that trucks will likely be the last to go, I still think it will be close. Again, the price of gas will continue to rise until most people are unable to either afford or justify paying the price to own a V8 even in a truck. Then there will be tons of incentives and offers to switch over and a lot of people will do just that. As that happens there will be less people buying V8 trucks which will mean an increase in MSRP. Of course the dealerships will want a piece of the pie and there will be markups.

So yea the truck crowd might hang on a bit longer than most but that is also due to trucks having a much wider variety of uses. You can use it for a family vehicle, you can haul stuff, go grocery shopping, etc. So that will keep them alive for a while longer. But I don't think it will be a whole heck of a lot longer.
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Old 10-15-2021, 10:25 AM   #9
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While I agree that trucks will likely be the last to go, I still think it will be close. Again, the price of gas will continue to rise until most people are unable to either afford or justify paying the price to own a V8 even in a truck. Then there will be tons of incentives and offers to switch over and a lot of people will do just that. As that happens there will be less people buying V8 trucks which will mean an increase in MSRP. Of course the dealerships will want a piece of the pie and there will be markups.

So yea the truck crowd might hang on a bit longer than most but that is also due to trucks having a much wider variety of uses. You can use it for a family vehicle, you can haul stuff, go grocery shopping, etc. So that will keep them alive for a while longer. But I don't think it will be a whole heck of a lot longer.
Don't forget, that GM is currently working with alternative engines. They have made great inroads with the 4 cylinder turbo platform. Pickup trucks will not go away, as its presence identifies the core of americana....it is in our automotive roots. I am fearful of the pony and muscle cars being destroyed. Yes, Pony and muscle cars also identify a staple of our history, it is just that the current means of powering them has become expensive.
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Old 10-15-2021, 04:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
While I agree that trucks will likely be the last to go, I still think it will be close. Again, the price of gas will continue to rise until most people are unable to either afford or justify paying the price to own a V8 even in a truck. Then there will be tons of incentives and offers to switch over and a lot of people will do just that. As that happens there will be less people buying V8 trucks which will mean an increase in MSRP. Of course the dealerships will want a piece of the pie and there will be markups.

So yea the truck crowd might hang on a bit longer than most but that is also due to trucks having a much wider variety of uses. You can use it for a family vehicle, you can haul stuff, go grocery shopping, etc. So that will keep them alive for a while longer. But I don't think it will be a whole heck of a lot longer.
Actually the price of gas will drop, supply/demand. It could very well get really cheap - unless the govt taxes the crap out of it.

I don’t see 5 years. Maybe in affluent areas, I see Teslas regularly, but in the rural town I grew up in I haven’t seen one. And there will be pushback outside of affluent areas as well. They don’t have the infrastructure, hell the affluent areas really don’t have the infrastructure either for anything more then the size of the market now which is just niche.

I like electric cars, but I think 50% at 5 years is optimistic. 10 maybe and a lot would have to happen for that to work as well. :shrug:

If I was a product manager at GM I’d keep a bucket of ICE products in the pipeline (or at least hybrid solutions). If the govt takes a political swing in the opposite direction electric could go the other way… IMO I think it’s a HUGE risk committing to all electric this early in the game.

I work with power plants for work, there is potential for electric prices to jump considerably as well. Running a peaker plant at full capacity that it wasn’t designed to do is going to incur costs. Yeah the grid might be able to support the higher demand, but not at the prices we get now. So look for electric bills to increase significantly to operate your home. And with restrictions on coal and even some pushback on NG that’ll get worse. Power is power. It has to be created somewhere.

If your into investing I’d look at turbine manufacturers and folks in Power Gen. If electric does become mainstream these markets will explode.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:28 PM   #11
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^^^^^ This ^^^^^

Where is the "like" button?
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
It isn't the end of the HP wars. Even if the restrictions became soo tight that they had to drop down to 220 HP they would still be battling each other. However it is starting to become the end of the high stock HP wars for gas powered engines.

Look at it this way, the Mustangs lose HP due to Ford recalibrating the tune. Meaning you still have the same engine components and compression ratio. So it is nothing an aftermarket tune won't fix. So basically you'll be gaining n extra 10 HP with a tune over the stock tune.

The HC Durango being discontinued might be more because it wasn't a strong seller. Most people in the SUV market are not looking at a gas guzzling supercharged V8 700+ HP unit. They're looking at Tucsons and Sorrentos and X3s and those types of vehicles. The SUV market was not gonna pan out well for the HC anyway. Plus they already had the Trackhawk in that market. It was a good endeavor but ultimately it failed. Now if the Durango AND the TH were both being discontinued then that's a different story.

Anyway the wars will continue even when ICE engines are long gone. It's just that now things are starting to shape up.

And sure, they all planned to be gas free by 2035. But that just means that starting now they will little by little transition people towards EVs. Most likely there's only about 5 years left on the clock IF that. Think about it. Gas free by 2035 which is only 13 years away means that there will probably be over 50% EVs on the road in 5 years. Maybe 75%.
HC Durango was planned only for a 1 year run.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:50 PM   #13
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The ICE hp wars is certainly in its twilight. Hybrid hp may be the next phase. But EV hp wars are just beginning. EVs don’t have the emissions restrictions as ICE so I expect top EV trims to have insane hp in the future. Like Tesla Plaid and more.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:57 PM   #14
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The ICE hp wars is certainly in its twilight. Hybrid hp may be the next phase. But EV hp wars are just beginning. EVs don’t have the emissions restrictions as ICE so I expect top EV trims to have insane hp in the future. Like Tesla Plaid and more.
My biggest concern is that the govt will decide that electric cars can only accelerate at xxx/amount. There’s no doubt the 0-60 in an electric car can be insane. I see that regulation coming next which will suck.
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